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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« on: February 14, 2012, 10:27:50 PM »
@Iggy

(A break-out from the X1000 dnetc benchmark thread)

Quote from: Iggy;679536
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;679505
@ Iggy

A Cortex-A8 (Efika MX) beats a Sam440.
A Cortex-A9 beats a G4.


You like long winded posts, but you never offer any proof for your statements.

I'd really like to see a benchmark on  the second one since it seems implausible.



"A Cortex-A8 (Efika MX) beats a Sam440"

PPC440EP: 2.0 DMIPS/MHz, meaning 1,334 DMIPS @ 667MHz of a Sam440ep
Cortex-A8: 2.0 DMIPS/MHz, meaning 1,600 DMIPS @ 800MHz of an Efika MX

NBench pictures the Efika MX as generally faster, even after upscaling the Sam results to 800MHz. In addition to this, the CPU used in the Efika MX has several HW accellerators that will offload and speed up many multi-media tasks from the CPU, like audio/video encoding/decoding, OpenVG, it has a SIMD (like Altivec, but not as powerful) called Neon, etc. None of this is present in the PPC440EP, which doesn't even have a L2 cache (the Efika MX CPU has 256KB). For example, the Efika MX can decode and display 720p HD video streams (it can actually decode 1080p streams, but not display it at 1080p resolution, due to some bottle necks that was removed in the i.MX53 version). The Efika is the winner.

Oh, and for the sake of comparison:

Efika MX: $129, giving you a complete, fully working system for most uses (but yes, rather limited and not expandable)
Sam440: ~$600, giving you a *motherboard only*, system components of choice *on top* of this, plus the mandatory OS4, all in all "north of" $1,000.
VAT not included.


"A Cortex-A9 beats a G4"

MPC7447A: 2.3 DMIPS/MHz:
This should mean about 3,266 DMIPS @ 1,420 MHz (a *fast* G4, used for example in a Common Mac Mini)

Cortex-A9: 2.5 DMIPS/MHz (*per core*, can have 1-4 cores):

A *generic* Cortex-A9 from ARM (used in Apple A5 and Tegra 2 for instance) delivers 2,500 DMIPS per core @ 1,000 MHz, meaning 5,000 DMIPS per CPU in dual core configuration.

Then there is the upcoming (summer 2012?) Qualcomm Krait, that isn't simply just using the generic core, but optimized and tuned to improve the per-core performance to 3.3 DMIPS/MHz (built using 28nm process), resulting in a staggering 9,900 DMIPS @ 1,500 MHz.

The Tegra 3 is a *quad-core* Cortex-A9, running up to 1.300 MHz (times 2.5 DMIPS/MHz, times 4 cores). It's "up to 3 times faster than Tegra 2 (measured with GLBenchmark 2.0 Egypt)", still being Cortex-A9, still being built in a 40nm process. Actually, the Tegra 3 is a "five core" CPU: "The Tegra 3 is the world's first variable symmetric multiprocessing processor (vSMP). Variable SMP is the brain that makes the 4 main + 1 companion core setup tick. Basically, it smartly distributes the workload so the platform uses four cores humming at up to 1.3GHz when needed (think games), but switches to two for lower loads (think browsing with Flash), and goes down to one for casual activities (browsing, no Flash). Finally, it can also use only the companion core running from 0 to 500MHz for active stand-by, video and music." (Link: An Interesting Article on the Tegra 3)

The scaled NBench numbers (measuring *one* of the cores on an "old" OMAP4 based 1GHz PandaBoard) suggests that the Cortex-A9 is about on par with the G4, but again, much has happened to the Cortex-A9 CPU's since that one was made, and since most Cortex-A9 based CPU's come in dual core configuration (or quad), I actually feel my statement that Cortex-A9 beats a G4 is water proof. In addition to this, the Cortex-A9 processors (like most other ARM processors) also come with various HW accelleartors on the chip, freeing the core CPU from the most common heavy multi-media tasks, vector graphics/GUI/Flash, hardware Java/JIT acelleration, etc, things that the G4 simply don't have.


And while we are at it: Some speculations about Cortex-A15 and G5

While not being a 64-bit CPU (although it will at least be able to address up to 1TB of memory thanks to the 40-bit Large Physical Address Extensions (LPAE) addressing), the Cortex-A15 will probably be giving the old G5 a match, with its 3.5 DMIPS/MHz in configurations suitable both for mobile, high-end home entertainment, or low-power servers, up to quad core running at 2.5GHz (or for servers for example, octo-core or larger configurations through multiple coherent SMP processor clusters through "AMBA 4").

For example the announced dual core: "ST-Ericsson Nova A9600 (Dual Core @ 2.5 GHz Over 20K DMIPS)"

Iggy, this is a quote from a post you made here on amiga.org back in 2010:
Quote
e300: 1.9
PPC440: 2.0
PPC460: 2.0
Titan: 2.0 (presumably PPC450 based (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7186&forum=11&start=20#74317))
PA6T: 2.2
PPC750: 2.3
e600: 2.3
PPC470: 2.3 or 2.5 (varying with information source)
e500mc: 2.5
PPC970: 2.9
e5500: 3.0


As a reference to year 2012 ARM (some in quad core with clock frequencies up to 2.0-2.5GHz):
Quote
ARM Cortex-A7: 1.9
ARM Cortex-A8: 2.0
Qualcomm Scorpion: 2.1
Marvell Sheeva PJ4: 2.4
ARM Cortex-A9: 2.5
Marvell Sheeva PJ4B: 2.6
Qualcomm Krait: 3.3
ARM Cortex-A15: 3.5


This is current or immidiate future (like this year), not even mentioning the not-too-far-away 64-bit "x86-killers" from nVidia and others, based on ARMv8.
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 11:11:58 PM »
@takemehomegrandma

And now to the *actual point* of my initial post:

No, I'm not necessarily advocating ARM as *the* path to glory for *miga OS's. While ARM without doubt have its significant benefits, and this architecture indeed has a lot of focus from the whole industry, there are some issues as well. Mainly (IMHO): "Consumer Electronic Devices", i.e. not having a broad base for general, open "desktop" systems is probably the main one. Genesi and Pandaboard are two, are there more? Maybe it will be? Genesi is now working on producing a Cortex-A9 design based on the Freescale i.MX61 though, and may very well continue developing new systems whenever Freescale releases a new CPU...

But I wouldn't object to a x86 MorphOS system either! No, no! :lol: That's not the point I'm trying to make! ;)

Some people say that one of the most important things of the X1000 is that it is dual core, and thanks to this, SMP can be incorporated in the *miga OS from Hyperion. (The PowerMac G4 has dual CPU configurations as well BTW)

But here is the point:

Judging from what people have requested over the last decade, and also judging from what seems to be the ambition from some OS developers, "Moving Forward" may at some point mean the incorporation of some of the "modern" OS features, like true SMP, true MP, 64-bit, etc. And since this *will* require a clean-slate break from the Amiga legacy anyway (it must happen if you decide to go there), with a clearly defined border line marking the "before" and "after", the seemless "Amiga compatibility" scrapped post that line, starting anew, I must ask the question:

At that point, why continue the PPC path?

If you are to break the "Amiga" anyway, why not do it on some other architecture. My point is that even ARM seems to beat PPC. Performance wise, and from a desktop Point of View, x86 is even more attractive.

Isn't a platform migration the natural thing to do at that point? There is no "Power" in PowerPC, not in the year 2012 and beyond! ARM and/or x86, but not PPC!

Right?

:)
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 11:24:25 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;680529
Be interesting to see how newer PPC processors stack up - certainly there's more memory bandwidth to go around than with the G4s, which never got past 166MHz (not even DDR-capable.)


AFAIK, the MPC8610 (the last of the "G4"?) from Freescale had an on-chip DDR/DDR2 SDRAM memory cotroller @ 533 MHz (1066 DDR)...?
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 11:56:54 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;680535
You might be right, though either way it never saw use in Mac or Amiga-like systems...


Exactly like...

"Be interesting to see how newer PPC processors stack up"

...then? ;)
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 12:38:34 AM »
Quote from: zylesea;680538
THGM

While ppc is not the saviour of us all it has the benefit that MorphOS/AOS4 runs on it already. That is the *only* benefit of ppc over other architectures that holds some significance.
Hence the real question is not "ppc or ARM?", but "ppc or not ppc?". And in case of not ppc - why on earth should you choose ARM over x86 which is _for GP computers (aka PC)_ factors more widespread and very powerful and will not vanish in the foreseeable future.
ARM holds _zero_ significance fo Amiga today. There are virtually no powerful general purpose computers based on ARM available, but a gazillion of x86 pcs.


Please zylesea! I guess you didn't read post #4? ;)

Again, I wasn't really trying to promote ARM in front of x86! I would actually prefer a x86 port myself! :) The initial post was merely a "prelude"! ;)

Rather it was a question to those who (with the advent of X1000 etc) begin to look for features like SMP, MP, 64-bit, etc, and the question I was trying to rise was: "Since that would require a break from the past, why continue with PPC at all? Why not bring the new platform onto a modern architecture?"

For example, if MorphOS developers would want to start exploring 64-bit support for the future (as suggested by Fab in his presentation of MorphOS future), why would they do that on a *dead* G5 platform (or PA6T for that matter)? I mean, if the legacy is to be broken anyway, why not migrate to greener pastures while you are at it?

And indeed, there are many reasons to choose x86 over ARM...

:)
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 11:10:29 AM »
Quote from: Digiman;680552
1 is ARM better price/mips than the cheapest i7?


ARM's main strengths are efficiency (performance/watt), and price.

Also the ARM business model, which builds on others licensing the core technology for inclusion in their own CPU design is an enabler. Hence we see lots of different CPU's, coming from numerous manufacturers, that includes various accelerator technologies and hardware controllers inside the very CPU (including graphics and video/audio decoding/encoding, etc). ARM CPU's are generally complete "Systems on Chips" that can do what most people expects from a netbook or tablet.

 
Quote
2 is there an ARM CPU for sale today as powerful as the fastest i7


No, no, not by far! :lol:

But it's still quite capable for the "every-day tasks" that most people use their computers for. And it's cheap! :)

I bet that 95% of the Core-i3, i5 and i7 users (i.e. the "common people" (not those really into computing, if you know what I mean), more or less clueless, buying their pre-built systems off the shelves at MediaMarkt or from Dell) spends *most* of their time using Office, Youtube, Facebook, e-mailing, watching holiday photos and videos, video conferencing, chatting, playing music, and watching DVD's and 1080p movies, etc (power gaming, rendering, compiling of huge projects like Linux distributions, etc are excluded), and then current ARM chips works just fine.

But for raw performance, I guess the *current* ARM CPU's would be more comparable to "Atom" kind of x86 CPU's rather than the desktop CPU's...
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 11:31:26 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;680641
No need to emulate PPC, the source code for anything worthwhile will still exist (and will be in C, as no one in their right mind coded in PPC ASM) and can be recompiled for x86/ARM etc :)


Exactly my point! :)

Some people say that a dual core X1000 (or indeed a Power Mac with dual G4's) will make it possible to develop SMP for Amiga, but if you aim to do that, to develop "modern" features, like real SMP, real Memory Protection, 64-bit with increased addressable memory limit (which would also make "Virtual Memory"/swap-disk meaningful), it will *require* a break-up from the past, it will require a fresh start with a clean slate. And if you are to do that, why on earth continue the PPC path?

And as you said, no need to emulate the PPC. Most of the essential stuff is still "alive" and can be ported/recompiled. It would be a bit like AROS on x86 in that sense, you won't be able to run old 68k Amiga applications as seamless as you do in MorphOS today (would require UAE), but many of the MorphOS native applications could still be made available in a new version. Heck, with MorphOS 3.x, many things will even come bundled with the OS itself, including CD/DVD burning SW, FTP, etc.
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 11:37:52 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;680652
Quote from: mongo;680650
Really?

http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/T4240T4160FS.pdf?fpsp=1
But you don't get it, mongo! PowerPC is dead! Because they say it, it must be so!


Yes really.

Nobody claims PPC is dead for routers, switches, printers, and similar embedded applications (where CPU's like this one will do just fine, I'm sure). But nobody is developing PPC CPU's for laptop/desktop usage, that stopped 5-6 years ago (whenever it was that Apple went x86) and more importantly, nobody is making viable laptop/desktop motherboards or systems based on PPC CPU's!

It's dead Jim!
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 10:30:56 AM »
Quote from: mongo;680695
A15 is about 40% faster than A9. That gives you about 3.5 DMIPS/MHz.


The Tegra 3, is much faster than the Tegra 2, both being Cortex-A9 (higher clock frequency, more cores, better graphics and other accelerators, etc).

Some Cortex-A15 numbers: "What's more we already know of at least one manufacturer who has published benchmark figures for the Cortex-A15; Last month at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, ST-Ericsson revealed that its new system on Chip, the Nova A9600, would have two Cortex-A15 core, runs at 2.5GHz and, more importantly, breaks the 20,000 DMIPS barrier.

This means that the ST-Ericsson's tweaked implementation of the Cortex-A15 can reach at least 4.01 DMIPS/MHz, which is itself a 14 per cent improvement upon what ARM's figures.

Given that startups like Caldexa are already developing quad-core iterations of the Cortex-A9, one can easily envision that a 4-core Cortex-A15 will shatter the 40K DMIPS barrier, putting it within touching distance of the AMD Phenom II X4 940 Black Edition which reached almost 43K DMIPS running at 3GHz."


The Tegra "4" (Wayne) will be quad- or octo-core, made with a 28nm process, thus able to pump up the clock speed simiarly, and again there will be improvements on other aspects of the CPU, like the GPU, etc.
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 10:55:09 AM »
Quote from: mongo;680704
The difference between a CPU used in an embedded application and a CPU used in a desktop or laptop is what, according to you?


First, I think Kronos said it in a good way over at AW.net: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Second, Amiga is single processor. It can only use one of the cores, which will probably make a MPC8610 more attractive than this (the community could have had a readily developed, open sourced and and free to use design based on this at the price of 20x X1000's. But I guess it was deemed too expensive...), and please note: I'm *not* calling the 8610 attractive in 2012! True SMP is prohibited by Amiga design, can't have real Memory Protection, does only have 31-bit memory space (and no, you can't have "more memory" using swap-disk). If you want features like this, you must break with the past and start all over with a clean slate, a fresh start. Endianness doesn't matter then, choose whatever architecture you want. And my point is that nobody in their right mind would choose PPC.

But most important: Nobody is making *viable* desktops or laptops using these CPU's. There are no viable products, and there won't be any either.

Quote
Where can I buy a desktop motherboard based on an ARM CPU?


As you may have seen, I have acknowledged this lack of broad range of motherboards based on ARM, it's focused on "consumer electronic devices" (where an OS like MorphOS potentially *could* find a role to play) so I am not about arguing that, but in this thread, there has been at least 5-6 mentioned, I have both a stationary computer and a netbook based on the Efika MX myself...

Of course the x86 would be much better in this regard! :)
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2012, 11:08:54 AM »
Quote from: zylesea;680745
I think you may agree to http://via.i-networx.de/q86.htm then.


Some, but some not. Endianness won't matter one bit, for example. And in a micro-kernel environment (like Quark is meant to be), something like the "A-box" is really an abomination; you just don't do something like that, it's way too much going on in one "box" (if you want to call it like that). A more "kosher" way would be having every driver, every device, file system, every application, etc in their own "box" in the Quark memory space. PPC emulation is not important, at least it comes way, way down my personal priority list. I'd be happy to use UAE to run 68k apps and games, like on AROS, in the nice and easy way as MorphOS already offers (which will be more fun on a faster system than PPC, of course)...

Quote
But my conclusion remains that yet for a switch x86 makes more sense than ARM.


I agree, while there could be an interesting future on both of these. I guess it would be too much to as to support both? ;)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)