Who owns AmigaOS?

[takemehomegrandma]

Now I was wondering; who owns what?

In essence: I don't think anybody can give a 100% accurate picture of the ownership situation.

It's a mess.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=616011&postcount=199

But one thing is sure though; *Hyperion doesn't own Amiga OS*, not any version of it. They have the right to develop their OS4 it and sell copies of it, and use Amiga OS components for that, but they can't for example sell it to some other company willing to pay $20,000,000 or whatever for taking over it, since they don't own it. They probably couldn't use it as collateral for a bank loans...

[takemehomegrandma]

Yes, but can Hyperion release future versions of AmigaOS under the "Amiga" name?

No.

They can use the name "amigaos", "amiga os", "amigaone" and "amiga one".

But not "Amiga".

[takemehomegrandma]

@cgutjahr

You are mostly only repeating what I said, but in other words.

The settlement always refers to "AmigaOS 3.1". It is unclear - to me, at least - if this means "this particular version of AmigaOS" or "all versions of AmigaOS up until 3.1". I tend to assume the latter.

The settlement both refers to Amiga OS 3.1 (the software), and OS4. What do you think is unclear?

And they do own AmigaOS 4 - except for the code parts that are still left over from AmigaOS 3.1, obviously.

Which is *exactly* my point:

Hyperion has built a house (OS4). They have built it by heavily relying on construction materials that are *loaned* (Amiga OS 3.1/"the software"), and then they added their own stuff to the construction as well of course.

Well, Hyperion actually acknowledge in the settlement that the loaned bricks and planks (Amiga OS 3.1) used to build the OS4 house are indeed owned by Amiga Inc. And then Amiga Inc acknowledge in the settlement that the house is owned by Hyperion, *except* for the loaned bricks and planks they used to actually build the house, which *are still* owned by Amiga Inc!

Now, who owns the house? Not Hyperion, not Amiga Inc. They both exclusively owns their respective components in the house, their respective bricks and planks that was used to build the house. The problem is that they are forever mixed up and can't be separated.

The settlement also contains a clause that stops Amiga from competing with Hyperion in the OS departement. I assume that's why Hyperion alleges that Amiga can't license the "Amiga" name to CUSA if the latter are distributing AROS - because that would actually be competition.

That is obviously Hyperion's interpretation of it. How *they want it* to be.

But you must understand that Amiga Inc and Commodore USA *is not the same entity*, each responsible for their own actions, *but not for the others*.

Amiga Inc is in their full right to license the Amiga name to Commodore USA, which they have done. But they can't license it in combination with OS3.1 (or an OS with that API). And to the best of my knowledge, they have *not* done that.

But if Commodore *on their own* (being an own entity, with no contractual obligations whatsoever with Hyperion) decides to ship their products with AROS, what can Hyperion do about it? Nothing! Amiga Inc hasn't breached their settlement with Hyperion, and Commodore doesn't have any relations whatsoever with Hyperion. And none of the mentioned parties owns or controls AROS.

The "Workbench" trademark has been registered in the US by Cloanto years ago - Amiga are trying to stop the registration from becoming valid.

If you still are referring to Commodore, I don't think it has been decided what their OS will be called...

[takemehomegrandma]

I'm sorry, but you don't get it - and please stop with the house comparisons.

We're talking about the software business, not buildings.

Actually, the house example isn't that bad!

We are talking derivate work and copyright issues. Another example then; two authors writes a book together; the first person writes every *even* page, and the second person writes every *odd* page. Each contribution is forever mixed into one single product, and can never be separated again.

Now, who *owns* the book?

Add to that that *Hyperion's contribution is merely add-ons and improvements* to "the software" (which is the "real" IP here). They haven't created Amiga OS, they have modified and extended it.

I know you're going to go all nuts about what I'm going to say now, but I can't resist:

For whatever reason, the settlement uses a lot of words to first state that AInc still own AmigaOS and then declare that all of the rights usually associated with owning something are exclusively and indefinitely licensed to Hyperion.

Not the perhaps most important one (at least if you want to get rich); the right to sell the rights to it.

In fact, Hyperion have no control or influence at all over a situation where the IP might be sold...

AInc 'owns' AmigaOS 3.1, but they're not allowed to...

No, they *owns* Amiga OS! They have let Hyperion use it (for the duration of the contract, to be more exact). Hyperion can in no way claim ownership of Amiga OS.

While it is legally wrong to claim that Hyperion owns AmigaOS, for all practical purposes, they can act like they own it.

Not quite. They can develop it, sell individual copies of it, and sub-license it. That's about it. They don't own the thing. They don't own the trade marks "amigaos", "amiga os", "amigaone" or "amiga one" either, but have the right to use it.

If some venture capitalist or tech firm would approach Hyperion and say: "Hey, that's one cool OS you've got there, and we think the "Amiga" name still has some value! Here is an offer, we will buy the whole shebang for $4,500,000 (the amount Ben Hermans claimed Amiga Inc paid for the IP in some post, I don't know if the sum is correct), how about it?", then Hyperion, as tempted as they may be, *can't* do business!

But if the same people instead would approach Amiga Inc, they *can* do business. Then all Amiga IP could be sold, including trade marks. And then the corporate entity "Amiga Inc" could then simply be terminated, along with Hyperion's "right to use" contract.

See the difference?

And guess what has actually happened?

Pluritas ... is currently accepting offers to acquire the worldwide rights to the AMIGA trademarks and associated intellectual property

Correct. That's why Hyperion threatened legal action against AInc, not CUSA.

Which is a bogus threat, since they would have no grounds for that.

[takemehomegrandma]

Yes it is. The only thing that would be worse would be a book analogy.

Oh my. Let's talk about cars instead. Car analogies rule.

No they don't, since they doesn't deal with derivate work and shared copyrights. What's so difficult to understand? Amiga Inc is *the sole owner* of Amiga OS. Period. Hyperion owns the various additions and modifications that turns it into "OS4", additions and modifications which are *utterly useless* without Amiga Inc's IP. You could say that Hyperion owns the components they have contributed with, but it would be a blatant lie to claim that Hyperion owns OS4 (or Amiga OS). And this is the topic of the thread - "Who owns Amiga OS?"

"The IP", i.e. the product that the buyer of said IP can't name, modify or sell to end users? Correct, Hyperion can't control that. I don't think that bothers them too much.

The "settlement" contract is between Hyperion and Amiga Inc, and no-one else. I'm sure that what any potential buyer is interested in, is the IP assets, and *not* the actual company "Amiga Inc", which is the one with that agreement with Hyperion.

Amiga Inc owns "the software" as well as the trade marks, etc, this is a well known "fact" (at least it's even acknowledged by Hyperion). That's what a buyer will take home, and simply leave in "Amiga Inc" what they don't want. I'm sure that Pluritas has all the papers in order. This is what they do all days...

I.e. indefinitely.

No, for the duration of the contract between the two entities. This is the difference with a *contractual loan* of IP, and *actual ownership* of IP. Ownership *does* matter!

That's just bogus. Obviously, Amiga Inc can only sell what they have

Yes, which is *all* the Amiga IP (except Hyperion's OS4 add-ons which, frankly speaking, I think everyone can live without).

rights to the IP which are licensed exclusively to Hyperion (e.g. the trademark "AmigaOS", the right to modify AmigaOS sources etc.) can not be sold to a third party.

Again, the "loan-contract" (for it is a loan, not ownership) can only live as long as the entities who signed it is alive (or it's revoked in another way). This is the difference between loan and actual ownership, which is why *it does matter* who owns the IP.

Sure, Amiga Inc has agreed that *they* won't sell Amiga OS to end users, etc, etc. And after the company "Amiga Inc" has been successfully dissolved after the interesting IP has been transfered, I don't think anyone will have to worry that they will...

Some people sees the settlement as a victory for Hyperion. But what have they won? The right to sell a few hundred OS copies to the few X1000 owners that potentially will be here some day, as well as Sam 440/460? Not very exciting, and hardly worth the legal struggle they went through. Amiga Inc is the winner; the only thing they "lost" was the "OS4-addons". And frankly I don't think they will lose any sleep over that. They finally ended the legal struggle that postponed the sale of IP, which probably has been their goal for a decade now...