Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???

[itix]

But that's not how you'd run Shadow of the Beast??
When an app makes a 68k call that doesn't have a PPC equivalent, you have to do that in software...

And if they are "changed" on the fly, then that changing is in software...

If you want to run Shadow of the Beast you need an emulator to emulate custom chips. To execute 68k code you dont need an emulator. I.e. there is no more emulation involved than when you execute Java apps on your machine.

p.s.  Someone needs to update this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_JIT if there's no emulation in MorphOS.

Calling Trance JIT is an emulator is also correct but one could also consider it as a byte code translator.

[itix]

OK, not the real topic, but how do the Amiga programs written for an Agnus, Denise, and Paula run on a MorphOS system (which is APPLE hardware) without an Agnus, Denise, or Paula (let's ignore Gary, Ramsey, etc. for now)?

Wikipedia says, "Emulation addresses the original hardware and software environment of the digital object, and recreates it on a current machine."

This describes MorphOS, AROS, UAE and any software that pretends, imitates, or in any other fashion, lies to you saying it is an Amiga when it is not.  MorphOS does not "eat" Apple hardware and a bit later "crap" out the Amiga custom chip set; it only recreates an Amiga-like environment (and poorly since there is MorphOS software that will not run on an Amiga).

I think here is the difference how you and tmhgm see "amiga". To you amiga is hardware, to tmhgm it is software.

Likewise many Amiga games didnt run on my Amiga even when Commodore claimed it was an Amiga and said title was written for Amiga. This is something you can run circles again and again.

[itix]

We've all agreed that we use it, are willing to buy it, and to fully use it you need a "Key. But it is not for sale because it has been "abandoned"

So...
I wonder if, we "Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4?" Or perhaps consent to allowing unrestricted access to one of the "keys" floating on the web. If the source code was in the public domain, then issues of use and improvements would be a moot point.

Did anyone ask developers directly? I think Futaura is still around occasionally.

Another solution could be opening a bounty and buy out IBrowse source code to the public.

[itix]

How about the Vapor software suite? Is Ollie still around?

AFAIKVapor software is owned by indenpendent authors sold under same company. To get Voyager open sourced (or at least free key) Zapek should be contacted, I think. Helps if inquiries are not written in traditional Amiga is back to the future style.

[itix]

voyager has a nice clean, simple and appealing gui, that on the plus side. but its so buggy underneath, i dont even know if it pays to open its sources. i have recently played a little with aweb, both under aros68k and os3.1 as this is the simplest working browser i know working on  both, and must correct my previous opinion about it. it doesnt look very funky, but considering the circumstances it is quite fast, stable and accurate even under plain amiga chipset. if it was possible to plug in css into it i could become much better usable nowadays.

edit: the problem is, its open source but i dont know where to look for them. likely they are kept hostage by big gun who apparently was the last who worked with it, and rescued it from lost repository or something the like.

Paid Voyager releases are actually very stable. It is those free evaluation versions which were from yesteryears having annoying crash bugs. Not very good strategy to get customers, though.

The biggest downside in Voyager is that it is using lot of private MUI calls. Getting it running on AROS (Zune) require lot of in depth knowledge about MUI. On OS3 it of course is not problem.

However, who is going to continue development of those browsers? AROS, MorphOS and OS4 users have got access to better browsers with HTML5, CSS, (limited) flash, Javascript, Unicode support and many more. Old Amiga browsers have their own quite efficient engines tailored for Amiga and I still like IBrowse very much for its efficiency. But unless someone is going to work on it 24/7 their feature set is frozen to year 1999 forever.

[itix]

Interesting statement there.  I think we're just in semantics now..
So, let's leave out the "custom chips."
Are all of the 68k opcodes supported on the PPC?
If so, then I agree...

If not, what does the OS do when an app issues a command using an opcode for a 68k CPU that isn't supported on the PPC?

If it translates it, even on the fly, then (IMHO) it's emulating the 68k CPU from the programs perspective.

It depends on from what perspective you are looking at it. I would call it a virtual 68k processor. 68k emulator or translator in MorphOS is not emulating any specific 68k CPU. It announces itself as 68060 CPU but it supports almost full range of (non-MMU) instructions from 68000 to 68060 including those not available on the real 68060 CPU. FPU instructions can generate slightly different results due to differences in 68k and PPC FPU and it also extends the original instruction set with its own set using trap instructions.

The programs never see the difference so from programs perspective it is emulating 68k CPU. From the operating system point of view there is no 68k CPU. There is only dynamic 68k translator reading a 68k op-code stream.

[itix]

ohh. i see. i know only the eval versions. i stand corrected.

talking about aros, this is actually an advantage if voyager would get open sourced. zune has to be fixed also up to the private mui classes. thats what currently prevents it from running ibrowse. so if a tool using private non documented mui features has been open sources, fixing zune might become much easier i suppose. you are actually meking me hot about voyager.

itix, do you have any link to the developers? olaf schoenweiss has proven to be very effective in gathering contributions for his aros68k distibution, perhaps he can get involved. i think it would be an advantage not only for aros but at least for 68k amiga users to have voyager open as pfs3 was.

Try contacting Zapek (David Gerber). Most likely the answer is no (and most likely there are other factors involved) but you can try. You dont get a 2nd chance -- be careful what you write to him.