Masjsta's A500 Vampire

[kolla]

I dont think people understand how big, complex, fast and modern Apollo core is.

And how unsupported it is by all compilers and out there.

In my view, the AC 68080 only has a snowball's chance in hell if they somehow manage to attract a bigger company that can mass produce dead cheap ASIC of it, and thereby make it a viable choice for embedded developers. An Amiga-only CPU core (and for the few) is no way to bring 68k back.

[kolla]

The benefit is that it opens doors for new software on classic Amiga that wasn't possible before because even a 060 would be too slow.

Such as? Look at OS4, MorphOS and AROS, there you have plenty of hardware way faster than that of classic Amiga, way faster than AC 68080, yet... the software issue remains. Besides, the Vampire is not that much faster than a 060, especially since the 060 has a well supporter FPU. To really take advantage of the AC 68080, you need software written especially for it, you need dedicated support in toolchains and compilers - or do people expect developers to manually optimise all applications by hand using asm?

It boots my quite GFX heavy OS3.9 in 720p res in about 3 seconds, it plays MP3 while I Surf the web, share files with my PC, chatting on IRC,watch a slide show all at the same time with no sweat at all.

So it is almost comparable with a 5 year old smart phone

[kolla]

You do not need to re-compile older/current software to use the upcoming FPU on the Apollo-Core, it's fully backwards compatible (and a lot faster)

If that really is the case, then Gunnar has changed his view. Good.

In raw integer performance the Vampire leaves a 68060 in the dust, it is way faster then 060, the benchmarks do not lie, you can look them up.

I have, and yeah, faster than a 50MHz 060, but not so much faster than a 100MHz 060. It does not leave the 060 in the dust, it is typically only 50-120% faster. And that is on benchmarks, not "real life" tasks. I am not saying it is bad, I am just saying that it is not so much faster that it makes much difference if you want to run so called "modern" software.

Once the FPU is implemented (it's done and currently being tested) this also will leave a 060 in the dust on FPU performance.

Time will show.

And what is the point implementing a FPU that does not support current software ?!?

Indeed, that was exactly what I was asking some time ago. If it is really true that the FPU will be compatible (with 040 or 060 FPU? 68881/68882?) I am happy to hear that he has changed his views.

You are right when you want to take full advantage of Apollo Core like using AMMX you'll have to do some ASM code or inline ASM code.
But the main point is that Apollo-Core is fully backwards compatible and existing software will run and a lot faster then on 060.

Again, that is not exactly what he has been arguing up through the time, where his view has been that since FPU and MMU are nothing that "most users" or "most software" use anyways, he is free to implement them however he like, and awesomeness alone would be enough to attract software developers.

Also The Vampire activated a lot of ex-Amiga users that where inactive for years, so was I for for 10 years, until this happened.
And the Vampire is affordable even with the current price raise to 250 euro for V600 and V500. (060 card will cost double, triple  that ?)
There is nothing in the classic Amiga market that even comes close in price/performance.

I don't argue that.

And quit comparing 25 year old systems to modern ones, you cannot beat those, Classic Amiga is a hobby it will never be mainstream again.

Indeed, I am glad you realise, unlike so many others.
Then perhaps you realise that software development for classic Amiga is a hobby too, and that it is quite limited what kind of "modern" software you can expect to see, just because we now have a CPU that in general is 2-3 times faster.

And from this point of view Vampire/Apollo-core is the best thing that happened for classic Amiga since PPC cards.
Besides that My A600 with vampire2 can play a MP3 without stuttering unlike my old S3, what does that sometimes for no reason at all, though having more processing power.

People still play mp3s? I am impressed :laughing: Sorry, that is nice and all, and I suppose it is impressive to do something like that with a 68k CPU on an A600, it's just that I was playing mp3s on my A600 like 15+ years ago already, not using the CPU (a 50MHz 030+882), but still.

[kolla]

The bickering is over the Apollo team's software.

It's not software! :laughing:

[kolla]

If you are ACTUALLY curious about the FACTS, join IRC. You spend so much time here arguing "truths", instead of going directly to the source. Its almost like you dont WANT to know the truth.
Apollo Team is very approachable when they are active on IRC, and it seems like they are around more or less every day.

I did this, and got a little wiser. It started out with everyone joking about me not understanding "the obvious", then turned around to nobody except Gunnar understanding "the obvious", which suddenly wasn't so "obvious" for the rest after all, which prompted Gunnar to go into eye-rolling tea-spoon mode and actually provide answers that "normal people" can grasp. During this, I endured being called an idiot and various other less flattering things, something I long ago learned to take as signs of being on the right course in this crazy community. :lol:


I wanted to know about the 080 FPU and how users are supposed to relate to it. Given the choice of a piece of software coming in 020+882, 040 or 060 variants, which is more ideal for AC-68080? Answer: 040 or 060 - it doesn't matter much which. Given a piece of software does not support FPU or comes in 020+881/882, your mileage may vary, there will be "software that takes care of it", and how well that works depends on the functions at hand. "The software" will apparently be in ROM, though it is unclear for me what that means - I think not in kickstart, but rather something "closer" to the FPGA. (At this point we also learned that the 68882 is not really an FPU, but rather just a chip that runs a whole lot of microcode - software in ROM, providing an FPU interface, what we know as 68882, but whatever). Then there was a "but" and a small rant about awesomeness of the new stuff that will be in the FPU, but as someone who is more concerned with how well ancient utility software will work rather than playing media files (I have more than half a dozen devices that will do that so vastly much better than any Amiga will ever do anyways) I just zoned out. Oh, and the "regular" 68040.library will be redundant.

Next for me would be to ask about MMU, as new fast m68k hardware for Linux and BSD is very much sought after, believe it or not. People may think sticking with AmigaOS on m68k is crazy, but how about those of us who stick with m68k for Linux and BSD, despite all the other hardware we can run that on? We are f*ckin lunatics in comparison. Right? :laughing:

[kolla]

It is software, by every definition. It's not a sequentially executed language like you feed CPU's & DSP's.

Then a sheet of paper coming out of a printer is software too.

Apollo is software and more importantly it's an emulator, it happens to be a not very accurate one but that is by design.

And the sheets of papers coming out of a printer are merely book emulators.

That is the standard line, it Apollo can't run exec.library then someone can just patch it or write a new one.

You are aware that most Amiga models have their own exec.library variants already?

[kolla]

Light bulbs - emulating candles for more than 200 years.

[kolla]

That's a pretty misleading statement. What is different is not exec, but the bootstrap code that initializes motherboard memory. Actually, parts of expansion are also system-dependent, due to a compile-time variable.

Sure, and how is the Vampire different in this context? I wrote _variants_, not versions.

[kolla]

It would run 0 hours with Amiga BSD, Amix or Shapeshifter with TurboEVD video driver.

Amiga BSD?

No, paper is neither software nor hardware. But thanks for the straw man.

Clearly a sheet of paper i hardware. Postscript is an example of a language that is used to describe how the print on the paper will be. Same for 3D printing, you program the model. Same for FPGA, you program the layout. You only need to run the programming once to get a sheet of printed paper done and ready for reading. You only need to run the programming once to get a 3D print done and ready for use. You only need to run the programming once to get an FPGA done and ready for use. The software (the "core") is only there to tell the FPGA how to lay out its gates, after that is done, the "software" is strictly no longer needed.

[kolla]

For what it is worth - the Minimig runs uCLinux and Minix, I haven't tried them on the MIST, may do that over this weekend, just for show.

Oh, and MIST runs Aminix, iirc.

[kolla]

You don't program the layout in FPGA, you configure switches.

I would say that organising the switches, or rather, the gates, in a certain way constitutes a "layout".

Which is what software is, a configuration of switches. The switches are volatile therefore the configuration is software, if you put it in an ASIC then it's hardware.

And non-volatile FPGAs? How do they fit into this?

Postscript is software, it's passed through other layers of software and finally configures the print hardware. The paper is just passing by when this happens, the closest CS description for it would be a "storage medium".

And an FPGA can also be a storage medium.

fanboi's

That is not how plural is done.

[kolla]

does that make members of Nazis & religious fundamental groups are they on the right side?

Yeah, the extreme right side :hammer:

[kolla]

Yes, indeed.

But a new cpu library has specifically been said will _not_ be needed

[kolla]

You are completely unaware of the reality...

Users want a computer easy to start = plug & play, all in rom...

Hey, I do not want that at all.

[kolla]

Kolla, you are an idiot like TR, so shut up !

Whatever, I am used to being called an idiot by now.

Dance for me, you arrogant little clown :laughing: