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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« on: January 18, 2014, 04:40:51 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;757464
To be honest, the human ear can't really determine any discrepancy below about 12ms, and at high tempo it is even less sensitive.
Maybe not as timing differences, but they can still change the relative phase of the sounds, and especially on heavily time-variant sounds like drums and bass, that can make a difference.

Quote from: bloodline;757473
Music now has been commoditised, most people  just want to hear something that sounds like what they have already  heard, they don't have the same relationship with music that we would  have had many years ago. Music is easy to get and free. There is no  discovery or investment from the audience, hence little incentive for  creativity by the artists.
Well that's a damn poor excuse for not exercising creativity. Making good things is its own reward, and screw the people who want their same-old processed-cheese pop.

Anyway, yeah, the Amiga may be outclassed by modern gear if you look at straight specs, but specs-oriented thinking is a disease. Nobody ever listened to a '53 Les Paul and said "geez, it sounds so old! I'd be better off with something new and advanced!" Look at it as an instrument and the Amiga has a unique, gritty sound that's well worth playing with.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 03:08:17 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;757527
These packages were the pinnacle of MIDI sequencing software and by 1993 were available on Mac and PC... And are still available now (as Logic Pro and Cubase), in vastly developed forms on modern hardware, no need to struggle with their dinosaur versions on a relic of a bygone era.
A matter of opinion. Personally, I find modern "music studio" packages to be just too damn big and overblown. Give me a decent tracker or an oldschool bare-bones MIDI sequencer any day.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 07:15:12 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;757540
its interesting the bias here.
Yamaha sound chip produce "horrific" sound, but Commodore sound chips are somehow iconic, perfectly silly.
It has a lot to do with the huge amount of craptastic OPL2/3 music from the days of DOS gaming, I think. 90% of games with AdLib/SB support just picked random fart noises from the Visual Composer instrument library or used some third-party sound library with equally wretched patches for GM sounds, and that unfairly colored a lot of people's perception of FM as a whole (when even the OPL2 was quite a capable sound chip for the few who bothered to make any good use of it.)

Granted, there was a fair amount of bad SID music, too, but far less in overall proportion - and bad subtractive synthesis just sounds tinny and dull; bad FM sounds like a gastrointestinal apocalypse.

Quote from: minator;757547
The modern DAWs and softsynths etc. are so good  you can do everything in the computer now (Known as In-The-Box ITB).
The more I get my hands dirty with real hardware synthesis, the less I buy that softsynths are or will ever be as good as the real thing. They're useful for things I'll never be able to afford (Mellotron sounds, for example,) but they just don't cut it compared to hardware.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 08:44:33 PM »
There were indeed; they were just unfortunately vastly outweighed by the crap...
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 03:33:52 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;757577
I honestly can't see your point as it equates the quality of the artist's work with the hardware.
I agree that this is an unfair view; nevertheless, it's the kind of unfair view humans are given to, frequently without even realizing it, because we tend to apply negative associations to pretty much anything involved in a negative experience, however indirectly. It's the same sort of logic that led to me thinking I just didn't like beer for about five years when all I'd had was Anheiser-Busch crap. A sensible conclusion? Not remotely, as I discovered later; nonetheless, kind of an understandable one.

Quote
And those previous examples of Adlib sound are a sterling example of how much better Yamaha sound generation is than that used in the C64 or the Amiga.
They're good examples of what even simple 2-op FM can do when used well, to be sure; however, arguing that FM is just unequivocally altogether better than other hardware is a little more difficult to support. The OPL2 has the advantage in terms of polyphony, certainly, and is capable of some lovely highs - but the Amiga is capable of a vastly broader range of timbres, and the SID, limited as it is, has (for most people, though I gather not for yourself) an extremely pleasing quality when used well.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 04:50:15 AM »
True enough, that.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 05:03:44 AM »
(Also, would've PMed this, but your inbox is full... - you've mentioned before that you were working on a homebrew project  using a Yamaha FM sound source; do you have any words of wisdom to share  on the subject? Our discussion has got me kinda hankering to come up  with an OPL2-based keyboard synthesizer...)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 07:28:12 PM »
MIDI is really pretty simple - it's just one node telling another every note press/release, controller change (i.e. pitch bend,) patch change, etc. that happens, on one of 16 channels. Is there something specific about it that's got you confused?

Anyway, now that you're into MIDI, you're gonna have to get into collecting MIDI synthesizers... ;D
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 11:06:35 PM »
Ah. Deluxe Music 2 I think predates the introduction of channel-specific volume control to the MIDI standard and so it doesn't know about it. What you need there is to send CC #7 messages with the appropriate volume level on the appropriate channel. (This was the plain Volume CC before it was channel volume, so Deluxe Music might know it under that name.) Your CTK is certainly new enough to recognize it as such, in any case. You can see a listing of the official MIDI CCs here. If DM2 gives you trouble with that (I'm not familiar with its interface, so I don't know,) the Expression CC sometimes functions similarly (though it might alter the timbre or something as well, depending on the synth in question.)

(And: hardware, hardware, hardware. Once you get a taste for the character of real old-school hardware synths, nothing else will do ;D)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 11:10:44 PM by commodorejohn »
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 12:54:34 AM »
Quote from: rdolores;759083
I, myself, have a Casio CZ-101 synth, which I  have had since the late 1980's.  I got it in order to add another 4  channels to the 4 built-in to the Amiga for a grand total of 8  channels.
Nice :) The CZ's good stuff, although it didn't really suit me personally.

Quote from: mrmoonlight;759066
Truly grateful my friend I will get there in the end and will certainly have a go at what you suggest ,and I am going to have a quick look at some synths very best wishes Brian.
Heh :D I don't know a whole lot about what the market's like over in the UK, but you can generally get mid-'80s to mid-'90s synths pretty inexpensively (that covers late-period analog to the early days of multitimbral digital "workstation" stuff.) Your CTK will already cover most "workstation" bases fairly well (and your Amiga naturally fills the grittier "early sampler" role,) so I'd look at some full-fledged synthesizer gear (i.e. pieces that allow you to create your own sounds.) Here's my opinions on some gear I've used:

The Yamaha DX7 can be had pretty inexpensively ($200-400, depending on whether you get it locally or on eBay) on account of being such a huge seller in its day; the DX7-II has a bit different sound (less gritty, more clear - both are good, it just depends on what you want,) more patch memory, and better performance features. It's best-known for doing excellent metallic/percussive sounds (like the famous '80s pop-ballad electric-piano sound,) but if you take the time to really learn your way around FM synthesis it's capable of an extremely wide variety of sounds. You can also get module versions of both (generally cheaper, and good if you're short on space.) The TX7 is a Mk.1 DX7 in a desktop form factor and stores all the performance settings with each voice (something the original DX7 needs an upgrade to do,) while the TX802 is a rack DX7-II that's eight-part multitimbral.

Yamaha made a bunch of other FM synths as well, mostly based on simpler 4-operator chips. The FB-01 half-rack module is basically the same voice architecture as the Sega Genesis/Megadrive. It's a lot more limited than the DX7s, but also a good bit simpler, and it goes dirt-cheap ($50 range.) The TX81Z is a slightly pricier ($80-120) full-rack module that extends the FB-01's voice architecture with some of the features it was missing from the DX7, as well as multiple operator waveforms (which greatly extends its range of sounds.) Both have eight voices and are eight-part multitimbral; the multitimbral mode in these is a bit primitive and awkward, but for a studio setting it's perfectly usable.

Roland's D-50 was the other big-name early digital synth; it's capable of some glorious sounds and it's worth owning even just for some of the presets ("Fantasia" is still amazing despite being one of the most overused sounds ever.) It goes for more than the DX7, usually ($400-500-ish,) but it's worth every penny. If you want a lower-quality but cheaper version of the basic sound, the famous MT-32 module ($50-100) uses the same basic architecture (and is multitimbral, to boot.)

Transitioning between digital and analog, the Korg DW-8000 is a neat hybrid synthesizer - it generates single-cycle digital waveforms from ROM and runs them through analog filters and amplifiers, with the final stage being a digital delay that can be modulated for chorus-type effects. It goes for around DX7 prices ($200-300) and can produce some of the DX7's famous digital bell/piano sounds, but can also do some lovely analog-style pads and some neat spacey sounds that fall in between. There's also a rack version, the EX-8000, though it doesn't generally go any cheaper.

On the subject of analog synthesizers, you won't get the famous "big names" cheap unless you make an extraordinarily lucky find in someone's basement or something, but a lot of perfectly decent non-famous keyboards can be had fairly inexpensively. The Oberheim Matrix-6, for example, goes for $400-700 and has an extremely flexible voice architecture that can create some quite complex sounds; the sound isn't legendary, but it's plenty good. The only downside is that, like many later analogs, the voice parameters are all hidden behind a single set of data-entry controls (in this case, a set of membrane buttons.) Ugh...but on the other hand, it's that that allows the complex 90+ parameter voice architecture to begin with. There's a rack version, the Matrix-6R, that goes cheaper, and another rack version, the Matrix-1000, that has no onboard voice editing (you have to use a computer editor) but comes with a huge number of voices pre-loaded and twice the user-editable patch memory.

The Roland JX-10 is just a gorgeous instrument; it's like the analog synthesizer equivalent of a concert grand in that it just sounds ultra-classy no matter what. It goes for $500-700, and if you want to avoid editing voices with the craptastic "alpha dial" the PG-800 programmer goes for another couple hundred (unless you get a good deal on the pair, as I did,) but it's just an ultra-lush, warm analog sound. Its little brother the JX-8P can be had cheaper, but the JX-10 is basically two 8Ps in a single keyboard, which can be layered or split for some wonderfully complex sounds. There's a rack version of the JX-10, the MKS-70, which has the advantage of a much better MIDI implementation, which allows the use of free computer voice editors in place of the PG-800.

The Korg MS-20 Mini ($600) is a modern reproduction of one of Korg's old analog monosynths; its monophonic nature limits its versatility for live performance, but of course in a studio situation you can stack as many tracks as you want - you can even make whole songs with it. It's got a great grungy, organic sound, and its semi-modular nature and direct panel control of every parameter means that it's great for learning how analog synthesis works. Good stuff :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 01:08:57 AM by commodorejohn »
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 07:27:57 AM »
TX7s seem to run in the $100-150 range. The downside is that, like the DX7, they're monotimbral; if you go another $100 or so higher you can get a TX802, which is multitimbral. Also, the TX7 has no onboard editing, but the DX7's editing facilities are no great shakes to begin with.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 07:38:19 AM by commodorejohn »
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 07:50:09 PM »
Glad to be of service :)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 11:40:18 PM »
Quote from: minator;759204
Yes, great synth spoiled by a truly abysmal MIDI implementation.  However there is hope.
Yeah; I'd have installed that in mine already if I didn't have the PG-800, just to be able to use a software programmer, but currently it works and I'd rather not mess with it...

Quote
It wouldn't be my first choice.  The knobby side is easy but the modular side is confusing and doesn't make much sense.  That said, there is a very good series of videos on how to use it though on youtube (look up Automatic Gainsay).
I think the important thing is that you don't even need to touch the modular side until you're ready to branch out, since it's pre-patched with a perfectly useable architecture. And then once you've gotten acquainted with that, you've got a whole other series of possibilities to explore.

Quote
BTW Great track.  It shows how versatile it is - I wouldn't have guessed that was an MS-20.
Thanks :) It was a blast to make, too - I basically just sat down over the course of a weekend and knocked it out as I was rolling up different patches (just wish I'd written more of them down!)

Quote
This is a wonderful time to get interested in synths.  There's so many available now and some of them are incredibly cheap.  The Korg Volcas are an absolute bargain, but there's also the Microbrute and Minibrute, the Bass Station 2, Mopho, Minitaur, Doepfer Dark Energy and many more.
Indeed - I'm keeping my eye out for a good deal on a Minibrute, I like the sound as I've heard it. The Volcas are a bit feature-light for my tastes (and I don't like the Buchla-esque capacitive keyboard thing,) but it certainly is astonishing to see full-fledged analog synths for a paltry $150 apiece!

Quote
Even Roland just announced VA (virtual Analogue) versions of some of their old gear.

For cheap polysynths there're VA synths like the Ultranova, Venom, Microkorg and soon System-1.
Bah, Roland's VAs are underwhelming even by VA standards. The demos I've heard from the System-1 are about what the MicroKORG was doing twelve years ago. And Korg just utterly ate their lunch, to boot :rofl:
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 06:35:40 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;759295
Commodore John - that MS20 track you did was very good.
Thanks :)

Quote
I own several Korg Monotrons and just purchased a Korg Volca Keys - so I've been watching their analogue synth revival.
It's been pretty great, alright, and it's only getting better - Arturia doubling down on the success of the Minibrute, Korg recreating the freakin' Odyssey...what a great time to be getting into synths!

Quote
I also own a Juno-106, Alpha Juno-1, Yamaha DX100 and TX81z.
Lucky you, you've already got a Juno - prices on those suckers have been climbing crazily lately. I'd kinda like to get one, but at the prices they're getting lately, I'd just as soon pick up a Prophet 600...

Quote
Also like to buy old 1980s home/toy keyboards whenever I can pick them up for a few bucks at thrift stores (the interesting ones before Casio etc. switched to stock PCM sounds for home keyboards).
Yeah, there's some fun stuff in the low end that not many people know about. I'm still looking for a replacement for the broken Casio HT-6000 I used to have - it's a fully programmable hybrid synthesizer in the guise of a cheapo home keyboard! I've got a Yamaha PSR-48, as well, simply for the epic demo tune :D
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 10:23:05 PM »
The real deal is inexpensive and sounds better, anyway, although I will admit that FM8 is the closest emulation of Yamaha FM I'm aware of.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup