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Author Topic: Philosophical Question - Amiguing  (Read 39093 times)

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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« on: July 16, 2013, 06:17:36 PM »
I never had an Amiga growing up; I was a Mac kid. Didn't get my first A500 until 2000, when I was 16. So no nostalgia for a lost childhood here, except in that I remember how, when I was a kid, personal computers were going to be a tool to enrich the lives of the masses and bring a whole new level of creative power to basically everybody, instead of the glorified TVs they're becoming these days.

The Amiga, like 68k Macs, reminds me of those days, and that lost dream; indeed, you could make an argument that the Amiga, in its day, was at the forefront of that. I don't think that's "mere" nostalgia.

(Additionally, the Amiga is a lovely, elegant system design, that deserves a lot more respect than it gets.)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 09:26:11 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;740967
I think there is a tendency sometimes for people to label things that are "old" as "nostalgic", when it's not correct. For instance:
I have a large record collection, and few CDs.  Is it nostalgia? No, I just prefer the warm analogue sound to the clinical, digital sound of a CD.
I listen to old music, mostly 60s and 70s. Nostalgia? No, I wasn't even born then. I just think it's more rewarding (give me some nice Rock, Prog, Jazz or something over modern music any day)
My favourite film is "The Producers" from 1967. Nostalgia? No, it's just an awesome film.
My wife spent most of the evening playing Sonic on the Megadrive. Nostalgia? No, it's just a very good game.
My favourite platform of choice is the Amiga. Nostalgia? No, it's just an awesome platform to use and develop on.
Exactly. There's this notion that anybody who prefers older things can only be doing so out of irrational nostalgia, because...blind faith that new is always inherently better than old, I guess. Question society's blind devotion to Progress (and they always confuse mere motion with real progress,) and you're just some stupid romantic who must be afraid of change! Certainly it can't possibly be that you actually, honestly believe that a newer development is a step backwards or anything.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 10:22:20 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;740976
I wonder what the incidence rate of individuals who fall within the Autistic Spectrum are within the Amiga community (or even retro computing communities in general) is compared with society as a whole?

I'd be willing to wager it is pretty high.
Based on what? The idiotic Hollywood stereotype that "autistic" = "Rain Man?" The tendencies of self-diagnosed 'spergies?
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 11:22:19 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;740989
Based on being the father of a child with Autism.

Oh and having taught Computer Science at college to young adults who fall within the spectrum too.
Next.
Okay, then you do have experience with the subject. (Big brother of an  autistic-spectrum kid here.) I would, however, expect that that should  make you less likely to throw the term around in relation to any  old fringe culture...

Quote from: nicholas;740992
It's the aspect of perceived/actual total control  over the system that appears to feed the need for order that using  limited computers can provide that makes me think the ratio might be  higher.
So liking control and involvement means you're likely autistic? What about hotrodding enthusiasts? They like classic cars for basically the same reasons...
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 12:22:36 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;740999
But who the hell ever said humans are rational?
Haven't you heard, Thorham? On the Internet, you are always rational, logical, and objectively correct, and anyone who disagrees with you is a blithering, irrational, sentimental loony!
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 05:06:04 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741058
Or perhaps because they enjoy it? It's a HOBBY after all :rolleyes:
No, it couldn't possibly be that. If people were using it because they knowingly admire or enjoy it, then we couldn't sneer at them for being irrational, scaredy-cat recidivists!
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 04:04:58 AM »
Quote from: agami;741152
Sure I can, I am eminently qualified to do so and am often asked to do just that.
Really? Do tell! Where does one go to get a degree in Speaking for Absolutely Goddam Everyone?

Quote
My qualifications aside, the defensive responses you and others have made in response to the original philosophical question are revealing enough
Ooh, fun. It's been far too long since we had an amateur armchair-psychology smackdown.

Quote
If you, myself, or any other Amiga user who originally used an Amiga in the late '80s and early '90s were placed in an FMRI and then you, me, or any of them engaged in their favourite use of the Amiga i.e. playing a game, modifying the GUI/MUI, coding; the areas of the brain that would light up would be the same as those relating to nostalgia.

There have been numerous neurological and psychological experiments done on the subject of nostalgia, by all means do your own research to better inform yourself.
But tell me, what about those of us who didn't use an Amiga way back when? Obviously we can't have the level of nostalgia you're implying here, since we don't have a history with it.

And I'd like to know by what line of reasoning nostalgia and knowingly-considered positive assessments are mutually exclusive, anyway.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2013, 05:46:48 AM »
Quote from: agami;741166
Political Sciences at pretty much any university.
Cute.

Quote
Nostalgia only applies to something experienced in the past, so obviously a person who gets on an Amiga today for the first time cannot be nostalgic. That wasn't what the original question was about.
The original question made no such distinctions, using an unqualified "we" and implying that any such reactions were unlikely to be due to anything but nostalgia.

Quote
One is related to sense memory and the other isn't.
I didn't ask what the difference was, I asked where this idea that you can't have nostalgic fondness for something and at the same time have a conscious, reasoned appreciation for it comes from.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 12:11:56 AM »
Quote from: agami;741179
It has been conclusively proven that in the presence  of sense memory surrounding a subject matter, be it positive or  negative, a person can never form an objective assessment related to the  same subject matter. It has to do with how the amygdala consolidates  emotion originating in the limbic brain with other related aspects from  higher level brain functions into the hippocampus.

The limbic brain is very simple, there aren't multiple areas for the  different kinds of love one may feel i.e. love of a partner, love of a  child, love of a friend or family member, love of a pet, or love of  inanimate objects. All those hit the same area. Of course with differing  intensity and also filtered through some of the higher brains to  provide context. Same goes for dislike or hate. And with animals and  inanimate objects like a car or a computer we assist this emotional bond  through anthropomorphism.

We can certainly discuss things objectively and we can produce written  materials that read objectively, when we think about them in absence of  any emotional context. But the instant we start adding adjectives  describing emotions like 'I enjoy' or 'it's fun', we are automatically  applying a subjective view.
Hoo boy. First off, if you're  going to throw around terms like "conclusively proven," I'd like to see  some links. But I'm not inclined to believe that. For starters, the very  fact that we can conceive of separating the rational mind from the  emotional self, and can consciously attempt to detach ourselves  emotionally from something (however imperfectly) makes for a pretty fair  argument that the two are not inextricable from each other. You  yourself suggest that this is possible in your last paragraph, yet in  your first you say that it isn't...

Second, if it is true that we can only give objective  consideration to something to which we have no emotional  attachment (which, as I said, I don't buy,) then we essentially have  no objective basis for liking anything, because if we care  about it at all, whether through like or dislike, then we can't be  objective about it. This means that (as suggested in the OP) there's no  reason other than the emotive for liking the Amiga, but it also means  that there's no reason other than the emotive for liking any other  operating system, so it says nothing at all about the comparative  objective merits of any of them, and our like or dislike of any OS is no  more valid or invalid than anybody else's like or dislike of it. Which  makes the OP's whole notion that it's "only nostalgia" essentially a  meaningless distinction.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741249
Right. I just don't see how "being a soul" is any more likely to answer the question than "being a physical object". What exactly is it about "souls" that make them different from ordinary matter, such that they can have free will, but physical objects can't?
The thing is that basically anyone's definition of a "soul" involves freedom from the constraints of what we believe to be a deterministic physical universe. Asking why they're not subject to determinism like physical matter is like asking why physical matter is subject to conservation of energy; it's part of the inherent parameters of the universe. Souls, if they exist, are non-deterministic free wills because if they weren't, they wouldn't be souls. If you accept the possibility of their existence in the first place, you render the question essentially meaningless (because the question is asking for a scientific explanation of something outside the scope of empirical science in a deterministic physical universe.) If you don't accept it, then the argument is purely academic and just as meaningless (because the question is asking for a scientific explanation of something that cannot actually exist, at which point any explanation is as good as any other.)

Quote from: nicholas;741245
We are not a body with a soul but a soul with a body.
Depends who you ask. I look at it as both being key components in what makes a human being. We have an animal nature because of our flesh-and-blood bodies and brains; we are more than merely animals because of our souls. Take away either one, and you're left with something that isn't fully human.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 03:00:07 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;741279
God creating he universe is also a much more unlikely situation than the big bang happening on it's own, you have to brush aside logic completely to believe in God (likely/unlikely of course has no bearing on what actually happened).
Okay, we're getting way off on a tangent here, but I have to question this assertion. There may very well be evidence for the Big Bang as a physical process, but as to the idea that it by itself is a satisfactory explanation for the origin of the universe? Just one question: where did the matter involved come from? If, as some believe, it was funneled in from the "Big Crunch" of another universe, where did the matter in that universe come from? Is it turtles all the way down?

Sheez. At least someone who believes in a divinely-created universe is appealing directly to the supernatural, instead of implying non-specific magic and expecting nobody to notice.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 05:08:42 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;741329
That's not fair, I don't think I have a soul... But I still love the Amiga :)
Well, that still fits with Mrs Beanbag's axiom, doesn't it? ;P

Quote from: spirantho;741313
*very many words*

Lumping all people in to fit one example which you have chosen, and  thereby extrapolating for the whole group, is the worst psychology  imaginable. It's manipulating the evidence to fit the theory, rather  than fitting the theory to the evidence in front of you.
Thank you.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2013, 06:52:03 PM »
Quote from: Jpan1;741468
I actually think that when I see a picture in 4096 colours I can appreciate the limitations and awesomeness  on the Amiga, which really pushed the limits at the time, and the same goes for sound. I still get impressed when I see great demos and music on the Amiga now. With the abundance of HD graphics and sound, is hard to appreciate this as much on modern hardware, which IMO has amalgamated to variations of the 'same thing'. Therefore I agree with the idea that the Amiga has a great personality - apart from when 'software failure' pops up in a flashing red box. 'Guru meditation' is more understandable though.
Precisely. It's the same reason I'm moving away from software instruments to hardware synths, or doing my drawing on paper again - the limitations and quirks of the medium impose a distinct character on what you do with it. The Amiga strikes a very pleasant balance between having character and not being too limited.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2013, 05:37:54 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;741557
Some animals can absolutely positively converse in abstract concepts.
Interesting assertion. Tell me more - which ones? How have we discovered this?
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2013, 08:31:39 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;741615
There's a lot of nice documentaries about it that you could watch like I did.  Or I am sure that there are lots of articles or books written about it.
If you've watched them, you could just tell me the answer and save me the time...

Quote
I am also certain that dolphins, porpoises, killer whales can converse in both abstract and concrete concepts based upon watching their behavior.

I am also certain that lots of animals can think in abstract concepts but they lack the ability to communicate very well so most of their thoughts are trapped inside their brain.
I'm curious as to how you're so certain about this. Certainly you can conjecture about the possibility, and I can't say with any degree of certainty that you're wrong, but I'd like to hear your reasons.

Quote
Many animals can look at a problem and decide what tool they need and then they can go make that tool or find the tool and bring it to the problem and solve the problem with the tool.   Thus proving that humans are not the only "intelligent" species.

Humans are not the only species that communicates with sound waves.
Humans are not the only species that uses tools.
Humans are not the only species that farms.
Humans are not the only species that engages in organized warfare.
Humans are not the only species that can navigate from point A to point B using measurements of distance and angles of travel.
Humans are not the only species with Emotions.
I'm not disputing that. However, all of those are very concrete concepts, and not evidence of abstract thought.

Quote
The main thing that gives humans their advantages is their hands.  If Dolphins had hands then they would rule the world.
The thing is that you don't need hands and you don't need to accomplish world domination to demonstrate a human level of intelligence. Human amputees can do that. Do dolphins demonstrate abstract thought?

Quote
We also have an interesting mutation in our voicebox that gives us superior communication skills than any of the other animals with hands.  Our hands give us superior writing skills too, which helps us to pass knowledge from one point to another which allows a civilization to develop.
So you're claiming that certain animals can converse in abstract concepts, yet their communications are too limited to allow them to demonstrate human levels of intelligence? And you don't need writing to pass on a culture; civilization predates the invention of writing by at least 2,000 years, and various pre-literate civilizations have survived pretty much to the present day, or at least to within the last couple centuries. If dolphins were really that advanced, why could they not have developed a civilization using oral tradition? Humans can.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 12:42:34 AM »
The chimp experiment (which I've heard before, though like you I don't know exactly how true it is) would only prove that they have the capacity to impart learned behavior to each other - which I don't think anybody was disputing. Plenty of critters can do that.

As for toolmaking...as you say, it depends on where you draw the line, but to my way of thinking that's still a practical, concrete notion. It certainly is impressive that the crow can recognize something's potential as a tool, but I don't think it proves anything about whether they are capable of considering more abstract issues. "Can I use this to get food?" is a lot more of a concrete question than "is what I'm doing right?" or "where do we go when we die?" or what-have-you.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup