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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« on: December 03, 2011, 09:44:40 PM »
While I haven't used the Atari (though I do know that it didn't have memory protection, either,) I've used DOS, Win3.1, classic Mac OS, and Amiga Workbench (1.3 & 3.1.) Honestly, I'd put them all about on par in terms of stability. None of them had memory protection, so one errant process could potentially take down the whole system. Only the Amiga had pre-emptive multi-tasking, so an ill-behaved process could stall out the system almost as easily as a crashy one on Windows and Mac OS. And all three GUI OSes seem to have crashes about as frequently (not terribly often, but it definitely does happen.)

Really, it seems to come down to the quality of the applications you're using, as none of the OSes really have any way to protect themselves from an ill-behaved application. Part of the perception with the Amiga, though, might be because so much software was regularily run off floppies - one or two undetected disk errors can absolutely kill a program's reliability, so the gradual decay of a poorly-manufactured floppy can make software act a lot more unstable than it really is. With Windows and Mac, on the other hand, hard disks were pretty much a given by the time they got well-established.

Really, crazily enough, if you want stability in older computers, you just can't beat DOS. One application has absolute control of the system, with no others to get in its way (barring those pesky TSRs,) and you don't have to worry about any other programs being taken down if it does crash. Of course, that's because there aren't any other programs, due to the whole "no multitasking" thing, but hey! Stability's stability - which is why you'll still find ancient DOS boxes chugging away in the back room of countless little shops when Mac and Windows systems have long since been retired and replaced.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 09:54:32 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;670075
You could always try to look for alternatives with memory protection (assuming your CPU has an MMU of course).
You could, but IIRC there really weren't that many alternatives at the time. Xenix, I guess, but how many people really used that? And by the time the free Unices really took off, Win95 had already brought memory protection and pre-emptive multitasking to the PC world (write your own commentary on whether that actually improved stability or not :lol:)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 10:04:50 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;670080
Only serious alternative on the Amiga is to write a new OS from scratch, but there are two problems:

1) Someone has to write it. Not necessarily a big deal, but still.
2) Even if successful, new software will be needed that's not just a port of existing open source software.

Yep. And it seems like most people figure that'd be more trouble than it's worth...

Quote from: bbond007;670081
DOS OK as long as you only wanted to address a total 1MB or ram one 64K segment at a time.

Once you tried to address over 1MB of ram through various extended and  expended memory schemes, or enter "386" 32bit mode stability went out  the window. Those memory managers were massively temperamental when  trying to optimize your valuable "conventional" RAM.
I never had stability problems with protected-mode DOS, but then, all I ever did was run Descent on it... ;D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:12:29 PM by commodorejohn »
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2011, 10:05:43 PM »
Quote from: bbond007;670081
DOS OK as long as you only wanted to address a total 1MB or ram one 64K segment at a time.

Once you tried to address over 1MB of ram through various extended and expended memory schemes, or enter "386" 32bit mode stability went out the window. Those memory managers were massively temperamental when trying to optimize your valuable "conventional" RAM.
I never had stability problems with protected-mode DOS, but then, all I ever did was run Descent on it... ;D
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 12:51:30 AM »
Quote from: desiv;670108
I didn't play with the ST, so I'm not sure how common or not the BOMB was, but it was an existing OS.  GEM was a pretty stable OS already, so I would guess that it was more stable that Amiga or Mac OS early on..
GEM was just a GUI, which started on CP/M (and DOS.) The actual underlying operating system for the ST was Atari's own creation.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 01:00:17 AM »
Quote from: runequester;670118
TOS is stable because it barely does anything.
See also: MS-DOS :D
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 05:52:47 PM »
Quote from: lsmart;670154
\You can. DOS is a stability nightmare! I don´t know how you can forget that installing extra memory would break your software installations. Mice would stop working because of programms that reconfigured the COM-Port. One program would install something in your config.sys or autoexec.bat and the system would refuse to start at all. It took people days to make a new GFX-Card work with their games. And if you didn´t have a Souindblaster, but a compatible card, you were likely to have no sound in 30% of the games. Drivers would hang themselves midway in a program and there would be no error message at all.

Don´t kid yourself. The DOS you are seeing nowadays is a standardized virtual machine. The real DOS was very different in stability.
I've used real DOS plenty, thanks. And yes, configuration could be a nightmare - but once you got it configured, if you didn't change anything, you could keep the same setup running pretty much forever. I never said it's a great all-around operating system, just that when it comes to responding the same way to the same input with the same settings, day in and day out, year after year, DOS is where it's at.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 11:33:15 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;670222
The only thing you need is a floppy disk with bootable flag, the rest is all in kickstart: workbench/intuition/dos/graphics/timer/input... almost everything you need.
According to Wikipedia, that's only true for KS1.2/1.3 systems, 2.0 and later separated Workbench out to a library file on disk. Still, it is true that Kickstart is a whole lot of the system software (Old World Macs also did this, with the Toolbox ROM holding a lot of the fundamental OS code.)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 01:58:43 PM »
Quote from: Daedalus;670286
@commodorejohn
It's on Wikipedia, so it *must* be true ;)
Well, that's why I specified, when in doubt, pre-shift the blame :D
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 03:10:40 PM »
You could load something over the serial port ;)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 07:46:46 PM »
Quote from: desiv;670308
Not without the "type" command (or some other program), which you need on a floppy disk.
What about WACK?
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Amiga stability?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 09:58:13 PM »
Quote from: desiv;670354
I thought you could only get to that after a GURU???
Huh, I could've sworn there was a way to boot into it, but I'm not finding anything about it...
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup