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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« on: October 06, 2011, 01:25:41 AM »
Wow, that was fast. Too bad; he took the company in a lot of directions I don't care for, but he was still one of the last real artists in the field of technology design.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2011, 04:27:08 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;662687
Likewise, NeXTStep was cool, MacOS was atrocious. Nobody really remembers, or more likely wants to remember MacOS before OSX
Heresy! Classic MacOS was awesome. Way more character than that funky Unix thing they're using now.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2011, 07:59:46 PM »
Quote from: B00tDisk;662730
It was lulzworthy after spending a decade bashing Intel to see them whip around and give big gay hugs to x86 processors, but yeah, the Intel transition was without a doubt their shrewdest technological move.
I'd say "commercial" rather than "technological." But yeah, pretty hilarious for them to do such a sudden 180...
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2011, 08:45:29 PM »
We're probably getting off-topic here, but I agree with Digiman. It's true that Macs used off-the-shelf parts before the switch (though that goes all the way back to the original 128K Macintosh, so I don't see it as any kind of "betrayal" of unstated principles,) but the CPU is rather a key component of a computer, and for the first two incarnations, the Mac had a CPU that was as nice as anything else about the computer, inside or out.

Yes, there were probably solid business reasons for the switch, but the fact remains that x86 is just plain ugly, and the only reason it's faster is because of all the revenue that can be poured back into R&D on it. You can get a more powerful machine for cheaper with x86, yes, but for those of us whose horsepower needs are still around what a high-end G4 or a G5 can provide, it's still nice to know that there are computers that are actually nice under the hood.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2011, 09:48:11 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;662748
Was a key component, back when operating systems and applications used large amounts of assembler. Now it's a commodity component like anything else, you use the CPU that makes the most sense for the hardware you are building, not because it is a particular family; the software that will run on it can always be recompiled for your target.
You say that like it somehow makes an ugly architecture un-ugly. Yes, compilers can make any high-level language essentially usable on any Turing-complete architecture with sufficient memory. That's beside the point. Kludgey is still kludgey and elegant is still elegant, whether or not most people care about it. Some of us still like to use assembler, if only for hobby purposes. Some of us still care about these things.

Besides, architectures do still make a difference today, if less so than in the past - or weren't you paying attention when Android x86 became a full-fledged project rather than a simple cross-compile, because the original was heavily optimized for ARM?

Quote
It's 2011, not 1992. I used to hate x86 too. That's all it really was, just hate for the sake of it. The truth is that like it or not, the "x86" has risen above every reasonable technical criticism that's ever been levelled against it. First it was too slow and would never survive the RISC revolution. Which it did, just fine. Turned out that all the main architectural features of RISC don't actually require a reduced instruction set in order to implement. Then it was all "it will never survive the 64-bit revolution". Erm no, if anything, it's the most popular 64-bit platform in existence, likewise the most popular multi-core platform.
I don't give a damn about historical turf wars. I've looked at the architecture, both in its original "some day I'll be a real 32-bit chip!" incarnation and in its later forms, and I just plain don't care for it. Too few registers and an almost-but-not-quite orthogonal approach to using them that's never entirely disappeared, for one thing. (At least they seem to have finally ditched the last vestiges of memory segmentation in x64.)

It's not the "worst CPU evar!!!1," but Lord, it's not good. And the fact that the hurdles you list have been overcome attests to nothing more than that there's been a whole lot of time and money from a whole lot of different parties invested in making sure that it keeps up with newer, better-designed architectures - of course it's kept up, the freaking RCA 1802 could've become a modern desktop workhorse with those kind of resources.

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Which is what the vast majority of consumers want and hence what any business that wants market share will aim for.
Aaand when did we start judging quality by commercial success? If we judged movies by their box-office, Transformers 2 would be a masterpiece.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:50:33 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 06:17:27 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;663129
The Ipad is a laptop killer?
Maybe for you.
I still want a keyboard (and I want one larger then a Cell phone has).
So far, nothing has replaced my computers.
That's just the talking point of tablet junkies, they're totally going to kill laptops and desktops dead, any day now even. Just you wait and see!
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 07:09:21 PM »
Quote from: persia;663139
The days of one computer per household or person ended back around turn of the century.
Who said anything about one computer per household? Lots of people have laptops as well as desktops, yes - because laptops provide all of the functionality of a lower-spec desktop system in a portable form factor. Tablets provide a subset of the functionality of a smartphone - in a form factor only somewhat smaller than a laptop.

Quote
Virtually all tech people have a smart phone, tablet, laptop and desktop.  Each has it's strengths and drawbacks.
This is true. For instance, tablet strengths: it is smaller than a laptop, and generally has better battery life than larger laptops. Tablet drawbacks: much less storage space, no more RAM, no more horsepower, and higher price-for-performance than a laptop, controlled software market, and no keyboard.

Quote
But it's not a replacement for any of my other gadgets.  It's brilliant when you want to explain something to someone on the fly, check your stocks or play angry birds.
So, uh, which of those things can you not already do with a smartphone?
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 10:28:56 PM »
Yeah, I'm totally going to drop $500 on a thing I can't figure out a single reason to own on the theory that it has mystic qualities that cannot be put into words and must be felt.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 03:51:29 PM »
I will definitely agree that Jobs gets more credit than he deserves; take a look at Andy Hertzfeld's folklore.org sometime, it does a terrific job of conveying to the reader the fascinating characters behind the development of the Mac, all of whom made their own invaluable contributions to the whole, and only a couple of whom you're likely to have ever heard of (Bill Atkinson, maybe Susan Kare - but how many people have heard of Bruce Horn, the ex-PARC guy who made the Finder?)

On the other hand, Jobs didn't contribute nothing; he gave the whole project a consistent drive and direction that made it feel like a real consistent system rather than an assemblage of components (*cough*Win3.1*cough*) Rather like a film director, really; and Hertzfeld readily admits as much (even while admitting that he was also kind of an ªsshole, although he's diplomatic about actually saying as much.) While his "visionary" qualities have been blown out of proportion by a long-standing cult of sycophants, I don't think they were invented out of whole cloth.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 03:53:55 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 12:20:59 AM »
Yeah, the article seemed to be written by someone who's more a general tech-head than a programmer. Still, nice to see some more attention for the man.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 03:11:24 PM »
The Pippin was just another stupid "multimedia" game console like the 3D0 or CDi. The Twentieth-Anniversary Macintosh is an overpriced, under-specced, ugly pile of shιt. And the G4 Cube looked cool as hell but didn't offer anything a contemporary Power Mac G4 didn't.

Shame about the Newton and the clone market, though.
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup