Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: ARM based Amiga?  (Read 27378 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vidarh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 409
    • Show all replies
Re: ARM based Amiga?
« on: September 20, 2011, 09:27:45 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;660148
Heh, again I dont specifically mean the fab processes, more just that the progress of x86 is a well oiled machine. PLentiful, cheap, powerful and with nothing really stopping it being the cpu of choice for a desktop system.


With the rise of the power of smart phones and tablets, I'd argue more people will use ARMs as the CPU of their main computing device in less than 10 years, probably less than 5.

ARM already outsells x86 CPU's by a massive factor. ARM licensees are slated to ship something on the order of 5 *billion* CPU's this year, and even though smartphones and tablets is a small minority of that, combined they are likely to outsell PC's if not this year then next year.

Even PPC and MIPS are contenders in terms of volume (hundreds of millions sold - MIPS licensed 500 million units last year) - they're just focused on other niches, and can't touch ARM even though MIPS has a stated aim of going after the Android market.

This translates into a massive investment in all these three architectures, in growing markets, while the niches x86 sells best in are at best stagnating.

With more and more phones and tablets becoming powerful enough to be comparable to the low end desktops and laptops that make up the vast bulk of the x86 market, and more and more of them sporting HDMI out and support for bluetooth keyboards and support for external storage (even my crappy, cheapest possible Android pad has support for being a host device for external USB storage), and people increasingly spending more money on their phone than their laptop or desktop (my phone outside of contract costs about 20% more than my laptop...), the traditional laptops and desktops are set for a sharp decline, and with it x86 is set for massively increased competition.

That's not to say that it's demise is in any way imminent, but x86 is already a niche market making up a small sliver of the CPU market, and has been for years.

It's just that it's an incredibly profitable niche and very in our faces because we've been so tied to our desktops and laptops.
 

Offline vidarh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 409
    • Show all replies
Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 01:16:58 PM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;660174
@Vidarh

None of which makes ARM a great choice for a desktop. The current mobile fad will subside in time. Already things are close to saturated and more and more people are getting tired of the fad all the time. This isnt to say it'll vanish, but there's not much more scope for extra customers. The market is already predominantely made up of trend followers and same people upgrading thier phones, etc.


I find this short sighted at best. Two reasons:

- Get used to a smartphone, and you can't live without it. I use mine to read books, to play games, as my music player, to take notes, as my camera and camcorder, to check bus and train times, for maps, to read my e-mail - sometimes even when I'm at my desk -, to watch videos when I'm traveling, and more. It has consolidated several functions I before used separate devices for (camera, phone, media player) into one and at the same time given me more functionality, cheaper.

This is why the smartphone market is set to overtake the PC market in unit sales *this year*. Last year there were 305 million sold PC's, vs. 296 million sold smartphones. The PC market is stagnant, while the smartphone sales have been continuing to accelerate wildly. This drives massive investment, particularly given that the smartphone market still have vastly higher margins than the PC market, meaning the smartphone manufacturers can already actually afford more R&D than the entire PC industry.

- Higher end smartphones have *already* exceeded the performance, memory and storage capacity of a proven successful market segment for PC's, which means that with HDMI out and a bluetooth keyboard, it is *already* a viable main computer for a segment of users, and this is before Kal El etc. start pushing smart phones and tablets further into this territory.

The *fact* is that the majority of the PC market is now driven by cost conscious users that don't see any point in buying a much faster machine, and so buy machines between $200-$600 and *dropping*. The average price per unit for PC's is around the $400 mark, to the despair of PC manufacturers.

For these users, it does not matter that the CPU's used can't compete with high end x86's, as high end x86's are way out of their price segment, and largely irrelevant to their needs.

Quote

The cheapest and most powerful (by a huuuge margin currently,.... despite what people like to claim, arm is a far, far way away from even the most budget of x86 cpus. Even Denver is, when being optimistic, aiming for P4 class performance, something I personally couldnt deal with) will always be best suited to a desktop machine. Currently that's x86.


CPU performance stopped being a big differentiator to the majority of PC buyers at least 4-5 years ago.
 

Offline vidarh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 409
    • Show all replies
Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 01:23:18 PM »
Quote from: tone007;660175
After 3 weeks using a laptop with a 4-core i7 processor and enjoying the speed with which everything happens, I can't see such low power processors having an advantage where a real computer is needed.  Tablets, phones, sure, they need the battery life, but waiting for web pages to finish rendering due to wimpy processors is no fun.


Yet the vast majority of users are unwilling to pay more than ~$500 for a complete computer, so they don't get to see how fast web pages renders on an i7. In the meantime, my 70 GBP (~$110) cheapo Android pad with a 700MHz outdated ARM renders web pages fast enough for casual use for me, and is already about 3 generations beyond the curve.
 

Offline vidarh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 409
    • Show all replies
Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 07:31:07 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;660228
I agree completely that the current tablet/smart-phone boom is fad-driven and will subside as the novelty wears off


Personally I think that demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the long term appeal of these devices.

Don't think of them as phones. Think of them as computers that happen to have a small screen and touch screen and phone functionality built in, but that increasingly can be connected to screens and keyboards and all kinds of other devices.

Why would a consumer buy a large box desktop they'll never open and never expand when they can get a fast enough computer that fits in their pocket and that comes with a built in phone, camera and music player in a similar price range to what most people are willing to spend on a PC?

PC's have regularly shrunk in size. And the last few years the desktop market has collapsed as low end laptops have become powerful enough and cheap enough for people to prefer them to a bulky, stationary computer.

Why would this trend towards smaller form factors, that's been steady since the 80's, suddenly reverse?
 

Offline vidarh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 409
    • Show all replies
Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 09:38:36 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;660266
I have thought of them that way, ever since they came out. I keep running up against the fact that a laptop has a built-in keyboard and doesn't need a special mounting case for it (like the one my brother has to turn his iPad and Bluetooth keyboard into a makeshift laptop,) even the smallest ones come with better specs for price than than a tablet, and they have a vastly better software selection. And if you really need a touchscreen there's laptops with them or adapter kits for other laptops.


Those would be a big deal if you only ever want to use your computer as a laptop. If on the other hand you sometimes wish to use it on the go, sometimes as a laptop, sometimes as a desktop, a smartphone that can connect to a larger screen suddenly becomes a vastly more interesting choice.

And most laptops today are sold for home use where a tablet is sufficient: Sofa surfing, watching movies or fiddling around with things where people don't care about a physical keyboard. "Power users" that "need" a physical keyboard are a tiny minority.

As the same time, even for many of us that do need a physical keyboard some of the time, a tablet and/or a smartphone are viable second or tertiary computing devices replacing additional PC's and/or can be a primary device with "extras" such as the Atrix or the EEE transformer.

By all means these solutions are highly unlikely to replace the laptop or desktop entirely in the short term, but frankly I can't imagine any situation where we won't eventually get to a product where the screen and keyboards are "dumb" and the computer stays in our pockets unless we want to use a phone sized screen - the appeal is to carry your desktop with you; walk up to a screen and it's all there instantly, with all your data and everything. Having state (data and/or running processes) in a stationary computer if one that fits in your pocket can hold it all just seems silly.

It's not about if, but about when, and personally I think we're very, very close to the cutover point.

Incidentally, it's that dream that gave us VNC back in the day, though of course that was coupled with centralized computers, - Oracle and Olivetti's research lab used RFID badges couples with VNC to bring up peoples desktops whenever they walked up to a workstation :)

Quote

Didn't say it was going to, but I think it's fudging the argument to count laptops in with tablets, as they are in all regards much closer to desktop PCs.


I wasn't counting laptops with tablets, but with desktop PC's - laptops is a tiny niche too. Both were outsold massively last year by smartphones, and this year they are being outsold *combined* by smartphones. Tablets are a curiosity in comparison - tablets are much less of a threat to laptops and desktops than smartphones are, at least for the foreseeable future.

Tablets are nice once they're cheap enough to throw around the house as extra screens to surf the net on, watch movies on or read books on - which is why I have a 70 GBP crappy tablet. Smartphones on the other hand are viable at a much higher price point because they are multi-function devices to a much greater extent and are more portable.

Quote

But I do believe that the current all-hogs-to-the-trough rush the industry is engaging in is just another fad boom, like that magical period in the mid-'90s when investors were throwing money by the fistful at anything with a .com on it. Booms never last forever - eventually they go bust, and what emerges from the wreckage will be a lot closer to what the actual market supports.


I don't think we're anywhere near the boom phase for either tablets or phones yet. In five years time we might begin to see that. Today we're just seeing smartphones take over the "dumb phones" market and eating moderately into the existing PC market, with tablets as a tiny little niche sibling that will continue to see good growth because of the symbiosis with smartphones (e.g. I signed in with my Google account on my new tablets and had it sync all the apps I had installed on my phone with a couple of key presses).
 

Offline vidarh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 409
    • Show all replies
Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 09:56:36 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;660314
I'm just not seeing this, no matter how many times tablet evangelists repeat it. How is a tablet with a detachable keyboard that you have to lug around separately more convenient than a laptop which has it built-in?


Who is arguing that tablets are more convenient to lug around if what you need is a laptop? But the point is the vast majority of users don't need a laptop - smartphones already vastly outsell laptops and demonstrates what users really are looking for: a tiny, portable computing device that does the basics.

Quote

Since by "power users" you apparently mean "anyone who uses a computer for anything more than YouTube and AIM," I am going to have to vehemently disagree that they are a minority at all, let alone a tiny one.


Sales numbers disagree with you.

Quote

See, this is the difference between "can" and "should." Yes, it's possible to use a tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard in place of a laptop, but that doesn't make it a better option. Separate Bluetooth keyboards require a case like my brother has in order to not be a pain in the ass, and while snap-on keyboards like the Eee Transformer circumvent that, in either case you're just making it into a poor man's laptop.


You're back to talking about tablets when my focus have been smartphones. FACT is that more smartphones get sold than laptops. FAR more. At home, more and more newer smartphones can transform into a stationary computer by hooking up to a monitor or TV and a bluetooth keyboard. Same goes for tablets. The Transformer, Atrix and cases are workarounds for people who mostly just need a smartphone or tablet, but *sometimes* want laptop like functionality but not badly enough to want to buy both (or opt for the laptop instead of a smartphone). Those options will remain niche.

What won't remain niche is for the user that want a large screen stationary setup to instead of having both a smartphone and a desktop come home and plug their phone into their screen and have all their data accessible in one location but with a large screen as an option rather than paying for two computers and have to deal with shuffling data around.

Quote

Which raises the question, why not just a laptop, then? They're cheaper, they're nearly as compact,


They're nowhere near as compact or practical as a tablet, but I was talking about smartphones - tablets are a tiny niche - and my phone fits in all my pockets, my laptops don't.

But lets talk about tablets for a second: My tablet slips easily into my bag. My laptops don't. I could get a netbook, but it'd be as slow as my tablet, more expensive than my tablet, and it'd be far less convenient in the places where I use my tablet, such as while commuting, when what I want is a device I can easily hold with one hand while reading or surfing.

Quote

 they have a better software selection, and you don't have to tote around a separate freakin' keyboard if you feel you might need it (or leave it behind thinking you won't and then find that you do after all.)


More users use smartphones than laptops, so clearly most users are perfectly fine not carrying a keyboard around, or not having the same application selection.

Quote

And while desktop PCs might not be as convenient generally as laptops or other portable computers, they offer full access to all the expandability the market offers, up to gigabytes of RAM, terabytes of hard disk space, and the best CPU and GPU horsepower out there, and that's something no portable computer can claim.


Most users *never* open their machine, so no extra RAM, no extra internal harddrives (ever wonder why the market for external harddrives is as huge as it is, and why network attached storage is so big?). Have you looked around your local PC shop lately? In most mainstream ones, you'll see most machines displayed are laptops, all-in-one PC's built into the monitor, or small form factor machines which are nearly impossible to expand.  Ordinary users don't care about expandability, nor even know about the options.

Quote

Yes, that's probably not necessary for most users, but the set of people who can make significant use of more than what a laptop or tablet can provide is most certainly non-negligible.


I'm not saying it is, but of the 300 million sold PC's last year, I'd be shocked if it accounted for more than 30 million users. 10% of the market. A market that has already been surpassed in size by smartphones, and that is stagnant, while the smartphone market is projected to pass 600 million new units sold next year.

Tens of millions of users is still a valuable market, and a high margin one at that, and so there will remain plenty of options for those who need or want larger box computers, but it'll become a smaller part of the overall market.

Quote

You'll note, however, that the primary use of VNC in the personal-use computing world is to allow netbooks and tablets to access the storage capacity and computing power of desktop PCs.


Which is another reason why people don't need to carry high end computing power with them. My main machine is a low powered laptop. It can be even for someone like me who definitively fall in the power user category, because all the heavy lifting is done by a big server under the stairs.

Quote

The question is, what happens when they're ubiquitous enough that they stop being cool, and the public frenzy is diverted to some new trendy gadget? They'll be left with only the people who really want them and are comfortable using them, and who knows what percentage of the peak market share that will be?


My prediction is that it will *become* the majority of the PC market. It won't replace PC's - it will gain the capaibilities needed to *become* PC's for the large majority of PC users that today buy $200-$600 PC's and/or the users that have eschewed PC's for phones for years already (e.g. penetration of expensive phones amongst the <25 year age group is far higher than the penetration of PC's).

Desktops will keep becoming smaller, lessening the gap, with larger PC's remaining confined to enthusiasts as they have been for the last 10-15 years, but their market share will shrink as it has for years, only now it will lose sales to smartphones instead of laptops.

The laptop market will flatten out, and maybe start a slow decline, as people left buying laptops will increasingly be people who are business users who travel and power users who do serious work but want to do it from the sofa. The casual users who have driven the surge in laptop sales are users that moved on from desktops because laptops took less space and could be moved more easily, but that still have computing needs largely easily met by low end tablets and/or high end smart phones + screen / keyboard combo's.

Within 5 years, the majority of computing will be done on smart phones - already by end of 2013, the number of smart phones in active use is likely to have surpassed the number of desktops and laptops in active use with current projections - the PC market is growing at less than 4% year over year, while the smartphone market is growing at more like 40%-50% year over year.

Given the low price point of the low end of this market, the smartphone and tablet markets combined are likely to get far wider penetration into low income markets, which will drive the numbers to far higher totals than for PC's - About 3 times as many people in the world have cellphones as have PC's, and while most of those are simple devices, we've seen the capabilities of the lowest end devices rapidly increase as the cost gets low enough. E.g. even poor but large countries like Nigeria are one of the largest cellphone markets in the world because if people have to choose between buying a phone or buying a PC, the market shows that the phone almost always wins out. This will accelerate as the option to buy a phone with computing functionality tilts the benefit of even a mid range phone further towards picking the phone.

Feel free to hold me to this in five years time :)