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Author Topic: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License  (Read 30203 times)

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Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« on: November 09, 2017, 09:39:42 AM »
Quote from: Chucky;832864
Anyway I lovethis:  

- "Vampire is most compatble"
-- "Ehh this does not work"
- "you are doing it wrong!!!" (when it shuld be: "oh damn. we have an issue here"
- "It is most compatible"


so even if you present incompabilities...  there is deniers...

and my point is:  with every change:  you introduce NEW ways of being incompatible..

then it is. People decide if they want to spend their money on this "incompatible" platform and up to now most people are very happy with it (with few exceptions of course). Everybody who is not happy with it can sell it again with no losses, I assume that need is above supply at the moment. Keeping it and constantly moaning is strange to me, even more so if you do not own it and not interested to buy it but still moaning. Guys, search for another constructive hobby please. It is boring...
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2017, 11:36:31 AM »
Quote from: kolla;832871
Eh, yes, really, the goal was/is to make Apollo Core the de-facto CPU for Amiga.



Nope, we are hoping for something that is more compatible (on so many levels, not just hardware and software, but also socially) and more developer friendly.

You are a Lord now I guess ;)

You are using "we" obviously if meaning I ;)

There are different groups in the community obviously but the biggest group seems to be happy with vampire/apollo. Finally customers decide even if you dislike that
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 05:16:38 PM »
Quote from: Acill;832879
All I know is I was excited about the release of it, I helped Magista get a parts order so he could complete V2 500+ orders faster and bought my own to test. It got less compatible not more compatible and when I had problems with it I was brutally attacked on the forums and on the facebook page. They admins in the facebook page even kicked me out after I made a post asking for help in reflashing it. Once I did get it working again I got rid of it. I love helping out, but dont need drama like that and wish them all the best luck.

Anything negative is shut down and they hide the complete truth. That is my issue with this team and the project. The hardware is amazing, but those running the show are not so amazing. They take things way to personal.

It is propably a question of character partly but I assume if you invest 10 years in your dream to do something modern to benefit everyone and then you are constantly critisized and urged to make things different by people that never contributed anything you can become thin skinned propably.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 05:19:55 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;832882
I wouldn't code SoftFPU because I think it's a backward step, no offence for the work put into it but you shouldn't need any software patches/shims/etc if the CPU is as compatible as they claim.

If gunnar opened the 68080 source to let other people work on the HardFPU then that would be a different matter. He would fine other people willing to help out. He has put himself in an untenable position because he can't deliver what is needed, but he wants to keep ultimate control over it.

Bad management with a promising product but they don't know what to do with it, seems a perfect fit for Amiga. The curse strikes again.

No Gunnar explained it... the FPGA used up to now is too small to include everything including the full FPU. So now there is the softFPU and some FPU commands might transferred to hardware later but that depends what space is available.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2017, 09:52:01 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver;832926
I am just wandering what would people say if this offer included exactly the same core we know, but was only advertised as being a fast 68020 feature reduced compatible VampireV2 core? Would any developer be interested in it anyway?

Or is it that Gunnar is so unfriendly/difficult to work with/to deal with, that no one wants to bother with his offer?

I have seen all known Amiga hardware developers reject his offer. So either the core sucks or Gunnar sucks or something else sucks. Which one is it?

I do not understand what people are thinking... Gunnar and the others in the team have a plan with priorities behind what in which order and how it will be implemented. That would only change if someone offers money or when there are serious developers who help them implementing something f.e. by doing new software showing the new features. When they asked about that a long silence. Now they offer what they have for free because they think it might be interesting outside there is only moaning and people claiming this or that is needed otherwise it is not useful, even though that would mean lots of work and delays for the other projects/developments. It is simply a take or leave it offer, if the few hardware developers think it is not useful they are still free to buy limited original processors. No problem...
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2017, 10:12:53 AM »
Quote from: johnklos;832940
All of this back and forth about pros and cons seems counterproductive.

I'm in the camp of people who aren't interested in FPGA accelerators until they can do at least what a real m68k can already do, and that means an FPU and an MMU. I haven't added anything to these threads because nobody is talking about a compatible FPU and a compatible MMU in these products, but the naysayers and the apologists going back and forth are just making this all too annoying.

What I would genuinely like to see would be real, technical information about the technical roadblocks for a proper compatible implementation.

As far as I'm concerned, there are so few differences between the m68040 and m68060 that a core could and should be a superset of both. An option can be set at boot time to determine if the exception stack and status register should match one or the other. Options to enable / disable superscalar and branch folding in the PCR and CACR are a superset of the '040, and 64 bit instructions from the '040 can be implemented instead of trapped without breaking anything.

The FPU could easily be a superset of m68881/m68882/m68040/m68060 since anything emulated by the M68060SP can just be made in to directly working instructions.

With regards to an MMU, there are many differences between the m68040 and m68060 MMUs, so one would have to be chosen, probably based on whether there's enough support for the '060 MMU model. The access error stack frame is more detailed in the '060 MMU, the '060 has the PLPA instruction instead of PTEST to translate logical to physical addresses, the cache modes for the TTRs are different, and so on.

I wish I knew more about FPGA development because I think it'd be interesting to try to implement an MMU. It'd certainly be challenging!

they never ruled something out for future but it is a question of priorities. They need a advanced AGA compatible chipset for standalone so this is priority, the same is true for all new features of the V4 generation, f.e. new drivers are needed. FPU will be in hardware where possible or as software emulation depending on FPGA size. All is left for naysayers is compatible MMU. It has no high priority because not much software uses it, only development software. Normal user related software not needs it at all. They do the project for average users, not the few developers who need MMU. As I understand it they also will offer development software using the implemented MMU replacing the old software, perhaps that already ends the discussions. People should simply wait. It is a project by a small group of people doing it in their spare time. They do it because they want to do it. If people want them to do different things they should offer money or give good very good reasons for it. I have not seen anything like that, just the typical whining. If someone bought a vampire in past and is unhappy with it sell it, I am pretty sure that there is no problem to sell it. If these people keeps the hardware than make a proposal what you would like to have, developers will read it and perhaps do it later or not because of good reasons but the agressive bitching only makes bad impressions.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2017, 02:43:59 PM »
Quote from: grond;832950
I don't think you are entitled to get the full-featured Apollo Core for free just because you bought the V2. You got what you paid for and you even got free updates you didn't pay for. The next update will give you an FPU that is faster than any 882 alongside the integer unit that is faster than any 060. I can't see what's the rip-off here.

He moans that his Vampires are not big enough to include all features in hardware
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2017, 04:07:54 PM »
Quote from: kolla;832953
First CPU and MMU - the MMU is the uttermost important, now you can already attract an audience and developers far beyond the Amiga realms.

Then FPU.

Make sure this runs really well, and gets tested and used with a range of operating systems and hardware. Not just Amiga.

Amiga chipset is already implemented several times, so I would initially just use what exists, Minimig AGA. Other platforms use their chipsets, or implement them on FPGA as well.

Then have the "Amiga team" extend and improve AGA core, and the "CPU core" team add extra features to CPU, FPU, MMU, whatever, _in communication and agreement_ with core developers of all the involved 68k platforms.

Well - this is how I would have done it.

it might be that MMU attracts users outside amiga community but you miss the point that the apollo/vampire was designed for amiga users (or former amiga users) primarly