[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[OlafS3]

first sign of life


    AROS RTG test (Ignore the speed because Beta Core is in safe mode during on this test)

https://vimeo.com/156826082

[OlafS3]

You forgot £70 for tea and buiscuits.

and 100$ for a meal

[OlafS3]

My tea comment was halfway facetious.

My point is;

IF Apollo Team decided today to go down the AOS route, and thru agreement ends up having to add 20-40 dollars to the Vampire; I still would find the accelerator DIRT cheap and well worth the money.
Gunnar has expressed rather clearly that he wants the ability to develop more advanced features, and as such, I would ASSUME any agreement regarding AOS would entail development of AOS/P96 in one form or another.
Im not privy to the details of the discussion, but I have gotten the impression that Gunnar havent found the details in the agreement satisfactory from his point of view. Thats fine. I wont villify the other side of the discussion got that reason.

Apollo Team got options if they decide against licensing, which is fine with me too, just as an AOS route would be.

Im not fundamentally against developers getting money for their work, which some seems to be.

the problem are not alone sums requested but also to guarantee future development and the rights to the sources and the ability to go a independent route without always asking. Thomas Richter admitted that the results would have been binaries, no source codes

[OlafS3]

True, but the problem is the survival of AOS4 depends on the growth of its userbase, which primarily comes from the pool of classic users.  With significant growth and advancements on the classic side to keep users interested the move to a NG platfrom is not nearly as enticing.

People almost forgot it... Amiga world is a market too... very small but a market. If f.e. 4.X covers needs most users do not have then they do not buy it. Simple as that. Vampire or other projects do not change that or do you think people will buy X5000s because of desperation?

[OlafS3]

I don't think people buy NG Amigas out of "needs".  I think they buy out of curiosity and entertainment, and boredom with their existing product.  They like their Amigas, the current product is stagnant, so they look for the next evolution.  Some feel that's AmigaOS 4.x, some feel it's MorphOS, some feel it's AROS, and I think most have not bought into any of the above.

I believe forward-thinking activity on the classic front will keep classic users more entertained with their existing platform.

I thought about an X1000 when it was announced.  I exchanged emails with Trevor about beta testing, but when I saw the price I backed off.  Not because I can't afford it, but because I couldn't justify it and I have not regretted my decision.  Not necessarily because of the money, but because of where the platform has gone (really nowhere).  Even today, playing with classic systems is more entertaining to me than NG.

Is there any doubt that Natami would have easily outsold the X1000?  Even if priced at $1000?  I think it would have outsold it tenfold.

need is also just using something for hobby like people collecting certain things or using oldtimers in spare time. Need means people want something. For many obviously the NG route never was interesting, they would never buy used macs or expensive PPC hardware even if their existing hardware would break. More propably they would use UAE or drop out at all. My personal view. So I do not think that Vampire harms PPC sales.

[OlafS3]

Need is not want, but that is not the point.  I would say that I "need" a computer that does email and web browsing well - that's why I have a PC.  I "want" to have an Amiga, which is why I own my Amiga related hardware.

Even Trevor/AmigaKit/Hyperion admit to survive they need to bring in more users, and the most likely potential new users (by far) are existing classic users.  If things progress with FPGA, and especially if AROS gets some steam behind it, I believe it will absolutely hurt PPC sales.

I don't believe the existing user base can sustain the platform.  How many people bought X1000s?  How many of those will upgrade to X5000s?  I believe X5000 sales will be considerably smaller than X1000 sales.

Look at how many users complained that they had to pay for AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition - and it was cheap.  Are these same users going to keep paying to sustain the platform?

We will see!

Amiga is "want". For "need" you need decent new software, something people really want to have, perhaps even unique. That is much more than recompiled slightly updated old software. Difficult to get there.

[OlafS3]

@Niding

I do not think Vampire is fragmenting the platform very much

when you want to sell you want to cover as much as possible you will use 68020 and use AGA/ECS and/or the OS (3.X or Aros 68k)

there might be some software that will use new apollo commands for more speed (both games and applications) that will only run on Vampire

it is decision of developers

[OlafS3]

I agree with you in principle however, 'Super AGA' is whatever the Vampire devs want it to be - there's been discussions about implementing additional coppers or enhanced blitters and that's great providing these architectural changes can trickle down to UAE (assuming the devs are even interested in supporting them) - if not then Vampire-optimised software will only ever run on a Vampire.

Same deal with Xena really (but that hasn't really been used for anything).

I think RTG is much more important for new software than SAGA. And RTG uses OS calls

[OlafS3]

The software is different now, but that's what I loved most about my Amiga back in the day as well.  That and some games, and of course showing off the capabilities of the Amiga vs. the PC.

Nowadays there's nothing to show off since, as you said, even the NG hardware is very outdated and the software is just not there.  

So, is it worth the price of an X1000 just to tinker?  For some it is, but not for most and not for me.  And is tinkering that much more fun on the X1000 vs. the classics?  Personally, I enjoy tinkering with classics and FPGA hardware MORE than I would on the X1000.  But I can understand that some users are bored tinkering with their classics.  For me time is short and I haven't spent much time tinkering in decades, so there are worlds left to explore when I have the time.

But that's what the Vampire provides even today - lots more room to tinker on the classics, even for die hard users who may have been previously bored with their classics.

I normally work on Windows... lots of functionality and a huge software base. Perfect for work but also very complicated with registry and so on. Amiga is simplicity, you can easily restore your system. Of course not the professional software but as a hobby it is perfect.

[OlafS3]

what are you talking about?

there is nothing that would or will be monopolized

every adaption of Aros is benefitting everyone

as long developers do not use specific apollo commands or SAGA features software will run everywhere

[OlafS3]

In their dreams - I will pester them online for attempting at monopolizing the Amiga market till they blow off like lemmings.

Apollo core will leak! :laughing:

*sigh*

[OlafS3]

With the Vampire requiring AROS, and only new software being able to make benefit from the improvements Apollo core has over old 68k - what benefits are there in running AROS on Apollo core vs running AROS on a cheap ARM or AMD64 system?

then why running 3.X on Apollo core or more precise why running anything amiga related at all?

[OlafS3]

First of all, I don't think anyone is saying the Vampire would REQUIRE AROS.  Second of all, I believe they are suggesting the possible use of AROS to replace Kickstart.  You would still be able to use Workbench.

who can proof that he owns original roms gets a system with 3.1. kickstarts, everyone else with roms

3.X will not be developed because no sources, P96 is supported by a driver but nothing else

support for improved hardware will only be available at Aros (of course software can still directly hack the hardware on 3.X)

I hope all was correct

[OlafS3]

Honest question here - not trying to be snarky or incite a flame war: do people honestly believe that potential Vampire 2 owners are more interested in running AROS on their Amigas than 3.x?

I've tinkered with AROS (68k and x86) out of curiosity and I commend the devs for their dedication to the OS and the countless hours they've invested in making it *but* from my perspective the user-base seems tiny even in comparison to OS4 and MorphOS - having used it, I can't think of a single reason to run it on a classic Amiga - even one accelerated by a Vampire.

I can't help but think that those in the Amiga community that don't consider either AmigaOS 4.1 or MorphOS as 'true' Amiga successors would  feel exactly the same way about  Vampire/AROS. If and when I do buy a Vampire, It'll be to run 3.9 - and if Cloanto, Hyperion or whoever wants to restart development on AmigaOS 3.x then I'd be more than happy to pay for that.

Aros is a reimplementation of the 3.1 API including intuition, gadtools and many others.

Upon it you can use not only the limited default desktop but also Scalos and even Magellan (both old one and new one). When using Magellan you can even use MUI 3.8 on it (what I did). It includes additional several patches by default, moving screen out of window, AHI, CybergraphX and so on, there is PCI support and USB-Stack (Poseidon), both on 68k untested but potentially working, network stack and so on. Wawa managed to get MESA/Gallium working on 68k (though slow but who knows what future brings). I do not make judgements about X86 because I am mainly interested in 68k so I cannot say anything. On 68k what did you use? If my distribution then I tried to include as many features as possible, I orientated at Amikit not 3.1. I know that not everyone liked that but because I do not get money for it I try to do what I like. For me my distribution was a testing field what can be done with Aros 68k. For real hardware and FPGA that would be too much of course. I use the old Magellan on it so where is the difference between Aros and 3.1 if you configure it the 3.1 way? But of course it is called competition, Aros is a offer, you can use it or let it.

[OlafS3]

Well, we don't 'need' an updated OS but sure, I'd be happy to see some of the functionality of OS4 back-ported into 3.x - display stuff would be good (making the the OS more HD and RTG-centric) - basically bringing as much of 68k up to OS4 spec as is feasible.

I'm no programmer, but I'm guessing there's stuff that could be brought across from OS4 to make porting from 3.x to 4.1 and vice versa easier. Perhaps even officially acknowledging UAE as part of the Amiga family and making things like Wazp3D and native code supported out-of-the-box (more integration with the host OS/hardware?).  



There's plenty of users that choose Hyperion/A-Eon's offerings and are happy with them (more or less) - if the rights holders were to look at improving the ageing 68k OS I can't see that as being a bad thing (note: I doubt it'll happen unless Cloanto instigates it).

And of course, you're right - what people choose to run on their hardware is their business and I hope Vampire users are well catered for irrespective of their choice.

As I understand it you are not interested in buying a Vampire anyway. If yes and you have a 3.1 license you get 3.1, simple as that. But you get it how it is. They will try to support it with drivers like the P96 driver when it is possible legally but thats it. There will be no new 3.1, and expecially no 4.X for 68k how some (you?) seem to fantasize. Hyperion wants to sell 4.X on real PPC hardware, even the many emulation customers are officially not supported. All that "they will backport 4.X to 68k" are wet dreams distant from any reality. What you might have got (at best) a slightly improved 3.1. Regarding Thomas, I never claimed that the sources do not exist anymore but there is no chance for people outside Hyperion to access or change them. What if Hyperion really goes bankrupt? OS is not really that unimportant for hardware. Aros offers security and the sources are free accessible, that it is free of charge and no license fees is only one part of the picture and Aros devs are even happy if it is used by people even if they get no money. We will see how the cooperation between Vampire devs and Aros devs will develop, I think both sides will benefit from it.