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Author Topic: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS  (Read 15566 times)

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Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 09:14:40 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;783568
Users are not allowed to argue with Moderators


Arguing with moderators is one of my favorite hobbies :-)
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2015, 09:24:25 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;783570
So it's the off-the-shelf board underpinning the project that limits the amount of memory? If so, then that's a reasonable trade-off.

I don't think the term "power user" really fits an Amiga enthusiast.

Anyway, if a 68060 class expansion with GiB levels of RAM ever shows up for A1200 and so on, I'd definitely be interested. Alas my A600 is long dead :(


the bigger card will be for A500

if a Amiga user needs 2 GB RAM I would call him a "power user" :-)
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2015, 09:35:59 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;783574
I didn't need a 1.25 GB HDD for my A1200 in 1994 but I still went for it. You always find a use for more resource.

Incidentally, that drive still works 21 years later :)


I have a problem when I have to use the original low resolutions. If you normally use RTG you do not want to go back :-)

Of course you can never have enough resources. I see it now as a start of a new path and just the beginning. In future there will be better options.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2015, 04:33:45 PM »
Quote from: matthey;783736
Were you not invited to the Apollo Forum before the ISA decisions were made? Your name was mentioned in the ISA discussions and someone even put words in your mouth in your absence. If you are worried about such a minor issue as "PC" relative writes then maybe you should have a look at the lack of orthogonality necessary to add more registers, of which there are now 4 types and one of which is called A8. I was willing to compromise on "PC" relative addressing as I consider it a minor issue that is inadequate for code protection and it would help code density to a very minor degree (I did not draw the same conclusions from analyzing dissassembled code not that it is the first time or that I even bother mentioning such things any more). Maybe you would have had been given enough respect and been able to argue your issues enough in the ISA committee to make a difference but I doubt it. The committee of one has already decided the future of the 68k. I'm sorry you wern't there and missed your oppurtunity. Oh wait, never mind, this is somebody's toy project and the committee dissolved for lack of "yes" men.

I am a little disappointed of your behavior
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2015, 08:17:09 PM »
Quote from: matthey;783747
Then ThoR would have had no vote either and I was correct about it being someone's toy project.



I have never been someone's "yes" man but instead have had my own opinions which I have not hidden. I hope the Phoenix project is successful but I believe that the "enhancements" are missing the mark as far as being adopted and used as a 68k Amiga standard (something you want Olaf). Also, better ColdFire support would have made adoption and support easier outside of the Amiga community and made an ASIC for combined embedded use more likely. The enhancements are driven by one persons insatiable desire for more registers and performance at any cost, including future planning. Yes, he has done most of the work so perhaps it is his decision for his pet project. No one is stopping him or being rude but it does leave open Karlos's pondering, "I've occasionally wondered what the 680x0 might have become if it had achieved the same sort of popularity as the x86." We may never know what a professional company would have done instead of a pet project driven by one man's desires. I shouldn't complain as at least we get a faster 68020 compatible CPU but neither can I sell the enhancements I do not believe in.


I wrote that not because you disagreed or because of your opinion but because I dislike it when internal discussion are published in public. Internal should stay internal. That is my opinion.

To topic... new features always have the problem that they are not supported as long compilers are not adapted and software not recompiled. But a superfast 68020 compatible processor would be a lot already.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2015, 09:01:30 PM »
Quote from: matthey;783772
But the problem was that the ISA discussion was internal and the group too small. There were only 3 people with enough understanding to even have an opinion. Meynaf and I have somewhat similar (overlapping) experience and perspectives. Gunnar's perspective is very different. We did not have a diversified enough or large enough group that a consensus even matters. Gunnar opened up the apollo forum to the public recently so I don't even know what is considered internal discussion,



Phoenix may help the 68k targets of compilers to get some attention, I do not expect any major compiler support beyond that. Do you think the 68020 ISA is modern enough to compete with newer ISAs? Do you think it's modern enough to attract developers?


compete with modern ISA´s? You mean X64 or ARM? That is completely unrealistic. How much money and developers are invested in that ISAs and how much time you think Gunnar and the few others can invest in it? We need not to compete with ARM but the best solution for our platform. A good FPGA based device at affordable price has a market but of course not a mass-market at the level of ARM or X64. Or what is your idea? What would the "market" you see?

And we have a lot of compilers already (partly even with source code). We need best support for them. Developers are attracted by modern development environments with modern class libraries. And distribution opportunites (=user base). Not details of the ISA. I am propably typical for that kind of people. I use Visual Studio and Delphi on Windows. I could not care less about the details of the ISA it runs on.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:05:59 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2015, 09:39:59 PM »
Quote from: matthey;783783
The 68020 ISA is from the late '80s and what we are stuck with if the new ISA is not adopted. The 68k probably doesn't need to compete with x86_64 or ARM (they have more baggage also) but it could use some modernization. I was looking for interest in the embedded "market" where the small memory footprint is an advantage but that was before Gunnar dropped much of the ColdFire compatibility.



I have submitted changes/fixes to the 68k backend of vbcc which I expect is one of the simplest compiler backends. While I was generally successful in getting my changes to work, I was not at all sure of rare side effects that my code could have caused. It would take months of studying the code and working with it before I would feel comfortable in making changed which were not reviewed by Volker. Frank Wille is a more experienced and better programmer than me and he does not make any major changes to vbcc without submitting them to Volker. Compilers are not rocket science but they have intricate sensitive code that requires knowledge and experience to change even with sources.


i think we do not need new super-ISAs but a new platform that support the existing software base. I think (if I remember right) there are about 12 compilers in Aros Vision and not for all are source codes available. Even if it is possible to adapt one or two there would still be most unchanged. Another problem is for many programs source codes are not available so recompiling is unpossible. Developers are not attracted by asm code or ISA features but how easy can they solve their problems. That should be first priority in future,
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:42:05 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2015, 09:37:56 AM »
Quote from: matthey;783755
Yes, this is true. Phil "meynaf" also did not like the direction of the new ISA but challenged for it to be created as a test. It is possible to learn from doing things the hard way. The few people that write code for the new ISA would be disappointed if the ISA changed significantly. The new ISA is unlikely to be (even partially) adopted in the TG68 or other 68k fpga cores or eventually UAE (I believe Toni's position would change if multiple fpga hardware was using the same ISA) . It is less likely that a non-standard complex 68k ISA for a single fpga CPU would gain wide spread support in compilers. A core which is more compatible with both 68k and ColdFire is more likely to be interesting to embedded developers. Enough money could probably gain a custom ISA and then we could have a thousand variations of an ISA like ARM but this is what I hoped to avoid. People thought I was too early trying to push for the creation of a standarized ISA and trying to get input from others. I tried to create a standards committee/group by bringing in people to our discussions including inviting ThoR, Frank Wille and Dave Alsup (of Innovasic). I would have loved to bring in people like Tony Wilen, Jason McMullan, Volker Barthelman, Kalms and maybe even a Karlos who have understanding of an ISA from different view points. I guess people are too busy or believe the Amiga is too dead to care anymore. At least Gunnar is doing something.



ISA decisions make a big difference in how easily and quickly the ISA changes can be adopted. ColdFire enhancements are the easiest to adopt because they already exist and only need to be switched on in a compiler backend and in peephole optimizing assemblers. I bet Frank Wille could have ColdFire support in vasm working in a few days and already making a noticable difference in shrinking program sizes. ColdFire support in the backend could take a few weeks to add and test as it is a more delicate process to add. Taking advantage of the current ISA with more registers in the backend would likely take many months and bugs could turn up for years. Few developers are knowledgable and familiar enough with a compiler to add this kind of support. Are they going to dedicate this kind of time for a non-standard in an fpga CPU sold in the hundreds or low thousands at the most when they could be improving a compiler target with tens of thousands of hard processors? I don't think so. Phoenix is not going to immediately set the world on fire. IMO, it's better to have an easy standard to adopt with a few benefits and incremental improvements than a core specific non-standard with theoretical high performance that will never be utilized completely in compilers. Splits seem to be the Amiga way though. I'm tired of arguing and trying to create something better. Gunnar did make the right decision to add better 68020 compatibility (all addressing modes without trapping) and we do have this as a base which is the most important thing. We are moving forward past the 68060 in performance with this too. I should be thankful as we need new 68k hardware to revitalize the Amiga. I would have liked to create something like a cross between an Amiga Raspberry Pi, a Natami and a CD32+ but there is not enough cooperation, at least not yet.

You have not yet answered what you see as "market". And perhaps you could be wrong too, there can be more than one true. If I understood you right you preferred different choices because of it would be better for ASIC implementations whereas Gunnars design is better for FPGA (I hope I recalled it correctly) and you wanted to sell the core outside to other companies. To say it clear if today somebody needs power he uses X64 and if somebody wants something for mobile/embedded he will take ARM. There is not much room for other ISAs so to make a design that is not perfect running on FPGA (=fastest possible) just because it might perhaps be used outside is simply waste of resources. We need BEST solution for the Amiga platform. There are years of development in the project and I trust Gunnar that they made wise decisions when they worked at it.

BTW as I said most developers do not care about ISA details or certain instructions, that is a much too technical discussions not related to reality. How many 68k hardcore coders are still there? I know Novacoder and then I must think. Propably one hand is enough to count them. Even hobby developers are using compilers, that is even more true for commercial developers. Most people do not hack on the hardware anymore or program in asm. I had contacted former amiga developers because I thought I might create some interest again. Unfortunately that was not the case. So we have to build upon what we have, existing software and existing compilers. Anything else is unrealistic.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2015, 02:00:22 PM »
Quote from: matthey;784291
I'm sure people would have been interested in a processor as fast as a 20 year old Pentium and with a 30 year old ISA 15 years ago :D.



It's important to keep the price down for the masses and provide more freedom with a replaceable drive. Some people would rather have a DVD-R than a Blu-ray read only drive for example. A DVD drive may be a good enough base standard but it depends on how cheap Blu-ray drives could be bought. Consoles, DVD/Blu-ray players and TV service boxes are too limiting and not open enough. It's really frustrating to have so much power sitting there and only being able to do what they will let you.

I am sure that you are honest with what you are writing and really mean it but for now Gunnar offers the best 68k solution ever available and a payable also. That is what we need, a major hardware upgrade including 68k (at least 68020 compatible) and better graphics and sounds. I do not know whom you know or not but I do not believe at people investing millions of dollars in the market, not before products are there and the need is obvious. When you can show a working system and proof your concept by sales then you can go to a investor, not the other way round. Investors are cold calculators, they look how big is risk, what have I to invest and what do I earn and they expect a business plan. So first step is a working FPGA based system that can already be used with software being adapted to. I think we should gunnar simply let do his job. I see (from videos) more and more software running at a very high speed (and there is no improved chipset/RTG yet) that counts for me (and most others) and not abstract discussions about ISA details.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 02:03:35 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2015, 04:04:45 PM »
Quote from: kolla;784705
Matthey, you are essencially saying that the future of for a 68k FPGA core relies on Gunnar, I would say that this is to give him _way_ too much credit. I say this again - ignore Gunnar. You have repeatedly said the Apollo/Phoenix is his hobby project, so take your ideas to people who do give a damn, be it atari folks, minimig developers, UAE developers, whoever. Nobody wants a platform that relies on _one_ person.

Where is your FPGA Amiga?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2015, 04:05:38 PM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;784766
kipper2k crap that you made is worth nothing crap.

if you work with Gunnar, it's clear why gunnar still not sell NatAmi.

gunnar where is my natami?

please search for another playground. It gets boring

BTW what are you contributing?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2015, 04:44:01 PM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;784778
I think it's good advice.

You can wait forever for a fast cpu from gunnar.

If future of 68k FPGA  depends on gunnar, then 68k FPGA  will have no future.

Were it not you who longly explained why 68k is a bad choice and PPC the way to go and how superior PPC is. If this is true what are you fearing? You seem to become nervous it seems. No reason yet but this might change :).

I do not understand why your crusade now against Gunnar. If he not delivers what do you loose? What have you invested in the project? I cannot remember you to be there so what is your problem?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2015, 04:46:11 PM »
Quote from: Niding;784780
Well, I think the majority that are following Gunnars progress is hoping to speed up their Classic hardware. While my A1200 with Blizzard 030/50 and 18 megs of ram are doing ok, I wouldnt mind a 060 with 64/128/256 megs of ram+RTG.

I would never expect it to outpreform anything on the massconsumtion market today, but it would give my A1200 the horsepower to upgrade/tweak AOS 3.x and use more demanding programs that at the moment puts it at a crawl.

Purpose?

For fun (and some usefulness im sure).

That is what is promised. A nice little toy and for the next generation it might even come in a range where you can use it for average tasks. Not more not less.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2015, 11:08:35 AM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785297
if this crap natami have to be useful for anything other than amiga os, it must have MMU.

This MMU does not have to be existing 68k MMU compatible, of course.

kleine-gun where is my natami?

if you really think that your "crap" motivates anyone to use PPC you are on the wrong planet
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #28 from previous page: February 24, 2015, 01:41:24 PM »
Quote from: kolla;785309
Gunnar, providing cards for old computers was not in my agenda. While building acc cards for old systems is pretty cool, it's the stand alone systems that are of main interest, at least for me. The question is if you can reimplement a lot of old hardware using an FPGA, so that the old operating systems will be able to run on them.

Offering accellerators using A600 or A500 is only the first step. The Vampire is too small for the whole chipset but the card for A500 will be big enough and has both LAN and its own modern interface to monitors so processor, RTG and the chipset will then run on the card and the host hardware will be only used for keyboard and some of the old ports. The idea is to have something soon and then (after that) continue with developing a standalone hardware (that is more complicated, needs more drivers and so on).