NetSurf 3.2 68k released

[OlafS3]

@Mike

Thanks for trying on real hardware , it works (kinda) in WinUAE
with JIT set to max overdrive and is a little slow even then :roflmao:

All other versions crash for me.I'm sure there is somebody out there
running stable version ...

I cannot comment other platforms but if you mean the newest (no-ixemul) version from here:
http://ami-soft.blogspot.de/

"NetSurf 3.3 no-ixemul v5

it runs both stable and fast on Aros Vision (most pages are loaded and shown in 5 seconds prior on same hardware it were 20-30 seconds). Of course I have not tested it on "real hardware". In any case you will need "modern resources" when using "modern software". Some ask for newest OWB (that might be ported to Aros 68k) in comparation Netsurf is lean.

[OlafS3]

This is probably a dumb question, but how did this software wind up with so many different versions?  Is it re-compiled every night by a different team with different hardware, or something?

Obviously somebody didn't follow Joel's laws.  :lol:

For me relevant is: http://ami-soft.blogspot.de/

the other port was done to get a Reaction GUI and does not work on Aros Vision anyway.

There is of course always newer versions like Netsurf too is in development. There is only the difference between AGA and normal version, new is that it does not need ixemul anymore and is much faster. So as far as I am concerned when using RTG use the normal version without ixemul, without RTG use the AGA version.

[OlafS3]

Chris' version of Netsurf 68k is only native version of NEtsurf for 68k Amigas. It uses official sources meant to be used with desktop systems and it has a proper gui. Problem is that Chris is not "very interested" to support 68k Amigas, it is more like a proof of consept than a actual browser.

All other versions use Framebuffer frontend wich is meant to be used with "no gui" sytems and debugging also they are build to top of SDL.  Thats why Arthur version from Amiga Netsurf is NOT here http://www.netsurf-browser.org/downloads/ and never will. Frambuffer is not meant to be used like that.

I do not care about what is "native version" because it simply not works for me. Arturs version (noixemul) runs pretty fast now, the GUI looks good too.

[OlafS3]

A bug report which just states "it does not work" is not very helpful.

Oh sorry

it was not about downqualifying your work

it cannot work because you use Reaction but Reaction is closed. I have Classact but Classact and Reaction are not identical

[OlafS3]

I suspect that was an older version of NetSurf but the 68k should have better code density (smaller executable) than ARM processors when optimized (Chris's NetSurf currently isn't optimized). I would recommend 32MB minimum for Chris's NetSurf to be usable in its current state. I would also recommend at least a 68040 for usable speed but a fast 68030+68882 should work. A 68030@50MHz with fast memory is almost as fast as a 68040@25MHz with slow memory for integer performance but lacks the larger caches of the 68040 and the 68882 is a fraction of the performance of the 68040 FPU.



I don't know if Chris's native NetSurf could be much faster than Arti's version but you are correct that it uses less memory. Chris's version is more forgiving of installation problems but there are known problems including rendering clearing and font crashing for some users (not reproducible here) which make it less than usable, IMO. Most of Arti's NetSurf versions crash after some time on my real Amigas but not in my AmiKit/WinUAE install.

NetSurf is a bear to compile which keeps me from helping more. Wawa had all kinds of trouble and I am even less of a Unix person (I tried Cinnamon Mint but went back to XP). NovaCoder probably could have done some good but he is leaving the Amiga. It would be nice if Arti tried to help Chris more but Arti is still learning programming and has a different philosophy. Part of the problems with Chris's NetSurf is bugs and lack of support in AmigaOS 3.x compared to AmigaOS 4.x. I talked to someone "important" about porting AmigaOS 4.x Reaction to AmigaOS 3.x and there was some interest but Reaction is highly dependent on the intuition.library and graphics.library. There is a known bug in one of the intuition.library BOOPSI classes (parent classes of Reaction and datatypes classes) which I think I could fix with a patch (intuition.library and graphics.library are in ROM) but newly compiled modules with new support and new ROMs are the proper way to add support. Also, the AmigaOS 3.x intuition.library is an inefficient mess currently as the ancient Green Hill compiler requires stubs for all external functions. Updating AmigaOS 3.x to be more API compatible to AmigaOS 4.x would be a major undertaking and take a considerable amount of work. Users may be disappointed without a level of optimization and integration at least equal to AmigaOS 3.9. Current high end (FPGA based) 68k systems are perpetually delayed and/or have other problems I won't go into. There isn't much motivation to do anything as the Amiga hits new lows and dies more everyday.

We are lucky that you are in good mood today

[OlafS3]

No bueno on either of the versions included in the "NetSurf 3.3 no-ixemul v5" archive, either.  System completely locks up after the "Attempting to load program NetSurf" message.  Mouse pointer unresponsive, hard drive light stays solid lit.  

I guess I just don't understand the point of developing an Amiga web browser that only works on emulated Amiga's?  If only we could get all you talented guys to pitch together on an update to IBrowse, instead!  :lol:

If OWB is ported it will not work on "real" Amiga either because of missing RAM. It creates incentive to offer and buy new and better hardware otherwise people discuss why needing more than 64 MB for 68k. Emulated platforms will always be ahead of real hardware but they will create the incentives and the playground for real hardware.

Regarding topic... perhaps you could offer a error log?

[OlafS3]

Aww geeze Matt, your post seriously just made me depressed.  You have any good news for us?  

Where's @danbeaver with some witty pun when we need him?  

Matt had some different views and emotional debates about where a certain project should go to.

Regarding Novacoder sorry to hear that he leaves. I thought he would rethink when new FPGA based solutions become reality. He was one of the few hardcore 68k asm developers left. But life will go on and in opposite to what Matt says or thinks the platform is not dying.

[OlafS3]

I would be glad to, if you could offer some advice how to do that?

Like I said, I install the program in Netsurf: directory (removing any previous files from the other versions I've tried), double-click either of the icons, it says "Attempting to load program Netsurf" in the title bar, then the machine completely locks up.  Mouse pointer doesn't move and hard drive activity light stays solid lit.  Nothing I can do beyond that point other than flip the power.

Only version I was able to get working was one of the old 2.7 builds.  It loaded Google homepage but was so slow as to be unusuable, then guru'd when I tried to load Amiga.org.

Sorry that feedback isn't terribly helpful.  You can see my A2000 system specs in my sig, so while I'm not trying to run it on "the latest & greatest" hardware, my system isn't exactly a slouch, either.  Just not sure where to go from here.  It may very well be something in the "Options" file, but since I don't understand what any of those options do, I'm kind of shooting blind! :confused:

do you have my last Aros Vision somewhere? The version there works (at least in Aros Vision). You find it in Internet/Netsurf

I am not sure if Netsurf works without RTG except Netsurf AGA

just found it... it seems that RTG is requirement (except Netsurf AGA)

[OlafS3]

Hi @olafS3,

I'm not familiar with AROS Vision, but after some googling I downloaded the version "direct download (Aros Vision RTG)" from http://www.aros-platform.de/.

I do have RTG, am running the latest version of P96 from here: http://lilliput.amiga-projects.net/Picasso96.htm  on a GVP Spectrum graphics card.  I run my Workbench in 800x600x16-bit color, I also tried switching to 1024x768 but that made no difference (NetSurf crashed the same way).

I extracted the folder "Internet\NetSurf-m68k" from your archive (I see there was three different versions: "NetSurf", "NetSurf8Bit", and "NetSurf-m68k"... I assume I extracted the correct one?) and copied it onto my Amiga into the NetSurf: folder.

Double-clicked on "NetSurf" (not "NetSurfAGA" and not "NetSurf-nottf"), and the computer crashed in exactly the same way.

Obviously I don't expect the AGA version to work...  what is the "nottf" version?  I see this one a lot, too.  "nottf" I assume stands for "No TrueType Fonts"?  What does that mean?  Aside from having something to do with the TrueType fonts in the \Fonts directory, I assume?

I also went into the Resources\Options file and tried poking around in there for a bit.  This is where the lack of documentation starts to become frustrating.  A few examples:

What is that, bytes?  Kbytes?  The disk cache size defaults to 1,073,741,825 bytes?  The memory cache defaults to 2,097,152 bytes?  My entire Workbench partition is only 500MB, could it be that the program is crashing on startup because it's trying to allocate a larger disk cache than the entire partition?  I've tried adjusting these numbers to more reasonable values manually, with no luck.

Guessing at these options, too.  Could it be that it's crashing because it's trying to open a window at the full size of my Workbench screen?  And what is window_depth?  My Workbench runs in 800x600x16-bit screenmode.  I've tried changing these numbers to more reasonable values, such as a smaller window of 600x400, and changing "window_depth" to 16, also with no luck.

And those are just the options I'm guessing at.  The other options are even more cryptic and baffling to me!  "min_reflow_period:"?  "max_fetchers:20"?  "core_select_menu:1"?  Perhaps if these options were explained in layman's terms, one could figure out exactly what they're supposed to do and if they could be the reason why it's crashing.  

Long story short, I feel like this program is too complicated for a layman to understand.  *If* these options are the reason why it's crashing, then perhaps a GUI-based preferences program to help a user set them, prior to running the program, might be in order?    About the only thing I've noticed is depending on how I set them, can make the difference between whether or not I can still move the mouse pointer after the system's locked up.  

Of course that's all just hypothetical.  It could be crashing because I'm running Birdie and VisualPrefs to spruce up my Workbench a bit.  Or maybe it's crashing because I'm running THoR's MMU libraries.  Or any of a dozen different reasons.  No idea.  The system is pretty stable otherwise, just really doesn't seem to like NetSurf for whatever reason.  

the newest version is in "Netsurf" (the other two are older versions including the AGA version). I have looked in the documentation and at least for the 2.9 series RTG was a requirement so I do not believe that it works without it. "AGA" needs AGA obviously so without either AGA or RTG it will not work I think.