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Author Topic: Layers.library V45 on the aminet  (Read 133596 times)

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Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« on: September 11, 2014, 06:42:19 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;772778
that has no practical or commercial value.
No practical value? Tell that to people who use A1200s with 68030s as their main machine. No practical value :lol:
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2014, 02:57:59 AM »
Quote from: yssing;772868
I fail to see why some guys need to be so negative about updates, if you don't like updates, don't install them.
Exactly. Someone updates a system library, and everyone and their cat has an opinion about it.

Quote from: psxphill;772871
If someone graffiti's your house and you don't like it, then you don't have to look at it.
I suppose that means you don't like PeterK's icon.library, either?
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2014, 09:33:39 AM »
Quote from: wawrzon;772901
and now you are talking abut the bounty for whole operating system.
A very old OS no less, not to mention the fact that 68020+fast mem can do better than AmigaOS (a new, from scratch, incompatible OS, of course). I wish this whole AmigaOS thing would just go away, but no, we're stuck with it :(

Quote from: biggun;772902
If you read the posts and rantings here,
then one could come to the conclusion :
that for those who actaully  spend time on working on AMIGA software
it will be smart to not publish the software, or it least not to announce it at a forum like this .
I'd say: 'Don't let the party poopers spoil your day.'
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2014, 11:09:13 AM »
Quote from: wawrzon;772908
yet magellan was just a very old workbench replacement, just a component of an os in comparison and what did that cost? and odyssey? its "just"a mui frontend for webkit. dont get me wrong, i am all for open sourcing whatever amiga, just do not see it happen.
Not what I meant. The owners of said software obviously decide what they do and don't do with their property, and I'm not complaining about that. What I am complaining about is that we're stuck with AOS on our 68k Amigas, while something much better is possible, where we're also not tied to AOS anymore (including Aros). I'm specifically not talking about other old software.

Quote from: OlafS3;772909
are we really?
Yes, Aros is an AOS derivative after all, and it would be nice to be able to get rid of that completely, because 68k can do better than AOS and Aros.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 11:11:49 AM by Thorham »
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2014, 02:32:43 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;772912
What classic hardware do you use? 68020? 68030?
AGA with 50Mhz 68030.

Quote from: OlafS3;772912
If people would at least help testing and send logs to Toni Wilen there would be a higher chance that Aros 68k (and expecially the Roms) would be improved.
That sounds perfectly reasonable. Personally I have no problem with using WinUae for testing purposes.

Quote from: OlafS3;772912
Ok I understood you wrong, you do not want anything amiga-related. I think you are on the wrong forum now :-)
No, I'm talking about AOS, not the hardware. The hardware is great, just the OS isn't.

Quote from: OlafS3;772913
You "could" modernize AmigaOS (or any other related OS) but then you risk that no software runs on it anymore. Then you have a kind of BeOS with zero software, what sense would it make? A "proof of concept"?
Yeah, I've had it in the back of my mind for years now. Write something new from scratch. Would be great, but there would also be no software to run.

Quote from: wawrzon;772914
im not sure what you are proposing here. as i understand you want to get rid of os and...
... replace it with something better. Somehow I doubt there's a point, though.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2014, 09:03:56 PM »
Quote from: LiveForIt;772932
so way don't you install Linux 68k, or NetBSD 68K
Because I don't want to. Also, what am I going to run under these  operating systems on a 68030? If I want to run Linux, then I'll just  install a current distro on my peecee.

Quote from: LiveForIt;772932
In any case what ever you do your going to have  to deal with limited hardware specifications, so there is trade off  between having some thing that can do every thing and some thing that  has to be light weight.
Of course, but it's certainly possible to do better than AOS on a  68020/30, both in terms of speed, functionality and eye candy. In other  words, as good as possible without needing 60s and GFX cards, and what  not.

Quote from: LiveForIt;772932
Anyway I'm curious what do you think is the most important part of OS that AmigaOS do not have?
Memory protection is the main one, but everything can also be done better, that's the idea.

Quote from: LiveForIt;772932
I ask this question because I know you like to take over the hardware.
No, I don't. The thing I like to do is use the CPU to blit to the screen  memory directly, because it can be so much faster than using those  generic OS blitting routines. And audio, obviously, but what choice is  there?

Quote from: LiveForIt;772936
and if you wont to have application need to be ported from another OS
And that's the second part of what I want. New programs written from scratch just for this new OS, with absolutely NOTHING ported from existing software. Would be too slow anyway. Imagine porting FireFox to 68k :lol:

Yeah, a 68k Amiga software utopia. Sadly, it probably won't ever happen.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2014, 02:19:27 PM »
Quote from: olsen;773051
What did bring improvements was to replace the sorting algorithm, so that doubling the number of directory entries only about doubled the amount of time needed to keep it sorted.
It would've been even better if they simply read the whole directory first, then sorted it with the right sorting algorithm, and finally display the results. DirectoryOpus 5.90 does that.

Quote from: olsen;773051
This is how you get to "super fast", and Thomas is your man. Cosmos, I'm not so sure about.
Perhaps, but when you work with some resourced binary, it can't hurt to clean up the compiler mess so that you get much more readable code. After that you can try to replace algorithms.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2014, 08:43:37 PM »
Quote from: olsen;773078
Optimizing assembly code can be a rewarding exercise, like solving a chess puzzle, or doing calculus (yes, some people do that as a hobby, like playing "Candy Crush"; I'm still holding out for "Calculus Crush" for the iPhone). It follows a certain set of rules, there are rigid constraints and the number of possible solutions is small. Perfect entertainment!
Indeed :)

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773082
There are hot-spots where you have to use it, but if speed is essential, you typically want to be as flexible as possible to re-arrange your data structures to allow for fast algorithms, and to organize data such that the data access pattern fits to the CPU organization - and you don't get this flexibility in Assembler.
That's just not true, of course. Re-arrange your data, implement a better algorithm. How don't you get this flexibility in assembler, of all things? Of all languages out there, assembler has to be the one with the fewest restrictions. And yes, it's more work, but in assembly language almost everything is more work.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773082
It sounds weird, but a high-level language and more code can sometimes make an algorithm faster.
That implies that it's not possible to always implement optimal algorithms in an optimal way in assembly language. Guess what all code that's compiled to native becomes. Right, assembly language. For 68020/30 probably NOTHING beats properly written assembly language.

If you know you're right, than post a good example of an algorithm for which this applies, because I sure would like to see it. Or more than one, if possible.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2014, 12:21:15 AM »
Quote from: biggun;773097
The point is that if you write complex algorithms its a lot easier to keep the overview if you use a high level language.
Yes, higher level languages are easier for most things.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
Look, have you ever done a complex project?
Not yet, but define complex, or better yet, give some concrete examples of what creates the kind of complexity that is so hard to manage in assembly language (for software that would run well on 68020/30).

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
You seem to say "everything is in assembler, so you can do everything in assembler in first place".
For anything that's worth implementing on 68020/30 certainly.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
That's simply not correct.
It is. It simply depends on ones ability. Maybe I can't do it, maybe you can't do it, but that doesn't make it impossible.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
If you do the same in assembly, you would need to re-adjust the objects, re-check the interfaces. register assignments, scratch-registers...
And how exactly is that a problem? What I see as the main problem is when you're changing things all the time. Tells me that you didn't think it through thoroughly enough, and we've all been there.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
In other words, your daily work is so much tight up in low-level details that you are losing any type of control on the *real* work, and you're lost in problems usually not worth mentioning.
You can also try to get it mostly right from the start, so that you can focus on writing actual functional code. Anyone who's lost in the details all the time is simply doing it wrong.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
Software engineering means using the right tools to get the job done as best as possible.
That's only one part of it, and it's not the most important one. True software engineering means that you don't write a single line of code until you have a proper design. Something that works, and won't break when you want to add or change things. It's this part that's the hard part, and it can make the actual implementation process almost seem trivial in comparison. That's why when you're changing a lot of things you're not doing it right. You shouldn't have to, except when designing the software.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
Well, anyhow, just for the means of it, my offer was already that you probably start writing a JPEG 2000 from scratch from the specs in assembler.
Yes, but why JPEG 2000? I'd rather do something that's more interesting. Same for the MPEG decoder you suggested in the other thread. JPEG 2000 isn't widely used, and MPEG on 68020/30s isn't very useful. I suggested a new GUI system, but that's not complex enough. So the big question is what would be really worthwhile to do on 68020/30 that's also reasonably complex? An HTML/CSS engine maybe?

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
In the end, if you're lucky, you probably get something that works, but most likely because you have forced program structures together that are sub-optimal, without understanding that your selection of algorithms was more due to low-level ease of implementation than high-level analysis of the problem.
I don't pick algorithms just because they're easier to implement in assembly language. I look for algorithms that get the job done properly and efficiently, and if implementing them sucks, then it sucks and I do it anyway (or I don't because I'm lazy).

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773100
Professional software is something different than rewriting the "List" command in assembler.
I don't doubt it, but we're also not talking about ten million line programs here, we're talking about software that will run well on 68020/30s. Such constraints automatically limit the complexity of a project, because programs that are so huge and heavy won't run well on 68k anyway.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2014, 09:44:00 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;773131
To give you some ideas: The largest scale Amiga program I have written in assembler is ViNCed, which is about 63000 lines assembler. It is *barely* managable in that size. It's hard to change, and its hard to maintain.
Would you let me take a look at the source code? Might help you get your point across if you're right ;)
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2014, 12:01:51 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;773143
If you can afford to waste the time then go ahead
I've said this before: My hobby is NOT a waste of time to me. What's really a waste of time is having been an alcoholic for 14 years doing nothing useful at all. If I had spent all that time writing 68k software in assembly language, then I'd have quite a few nice pieces of software.

Doing what you like doing isn't a waste of time. You don't like assembly language? Great, don't use it, but don't say it's a waste of time just because it's a waste time to you. Some people like peanut butter and some don't. No sense in arguing about that.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 12:08:36 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;773148
you're not forced to organize your code
In assembly language, organizing your code properly is even more important than in other languages.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2014, 01:38:31 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;773152
You are not *forced to* by the language to do that. C and even more so C++ or Java requires(!) you to use language constructs to organize your code that are quite expressive and rich, and allows the compiler to check for the correctness of these constructs.
Oh, come on, you can make a mess out of things in every language, and yes, assembly language makes that easier.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773152
In Assembler, you have nothing.
Except the most important tool: Your brain. Nothing keeps you from structuring your assembly language code properly. If someone doesn't do that, then that's their mistake.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773152
Anyhow, we're arguing in circles. Given that you never worked on a major project in assembler, I see that you can hardly judge why all that is beneficial for a project
I can see perfectly fine how higher level programming languages are beneficial to a larger project (use them myself on the peecee, where I don't use assembly language). I simply don't agree with you that you can't do it properly in assembly language.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;773152
and why it helps so much. Don't you think that it's rather ignorant to make such arguments without ever having gone through all this at least once?
No, it's not ignorant. What's ignorant is assuming that your personal experience with this applies to everyone. You say it's too hard, because you've had problems with it, and that's not right.

Also, I'd like to see what's so hard about a shell replacement in assembly language. Would be great if I could take a look at that (because you claim it was hard to do).
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2014, 02:11:55 PM »
To Thomas Richter:

All you're saying is that because you can't do it, no one can. Because you find it too hard, it's too hard for everyone. That's some major arrogance right there.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2014, 04:57:54 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;773164
Once again: "Shut up, try it yourself, we'll then talk".
Yeah, I think I will shut up :)