ARM based Amiga?

[Thorham]

Nice, an ARM 'Amiga' Not wanted, because Amiga is hardware, not software (680x0+chipset). My Amiga hobby is based on actual Amiga hardware, and not some non-Amiga hardware. The software just makes the machine useful. What Amiga really needs is a better OS (written from scratch, and for 680x0+chipset) and new software that's also written from scratch.

68k is pretty much the one constant in the Amiga universe, we just need them to be faster

For what? Running crappy ports of crappy (not crappy in a functional sense) peecee bloatware? I'd rather just use my peecee, even if it's just because it has better operating systems than the completely outdated Amiga OS (AOS sucks and needs a replacement badly).

[Thorham]

I disagree about the OS sucking so bad.

The reason I say it sucks is because even 68030s can do a whole lot better (probably 68020 as well). The problem with AOS is that it's thoroughly stuck in the past. For example, not having memory protection as on option is one major gripe. Another is the completely antiquated GUI (not talking about just eye candy here). Also, all those damned patches just plain suck, and aren't needed on something new.

Our Amigas need something better, even if it's not a complete OS.

It's the compilers that suck.  If we could get an up-to-date compiler for 68k, we could write software in C, C++, and (by extension) PortablE that didn't suck instead of twiddling around in Assembly for our larger apps.

Don't know about that, I dream of something like Visual Asm++ No, really, it would be awesome. Anyway, are Amiga C/C++ compilers really so bad? Just asking, because I haven't done much with them.

[Thorham]

@Thorham

The reason Exec and the other libraries are stuck in the past is that they were written in 68k Assembly.  That just made them harder to bring into the 21st century when 3.5 and 3.9 were written.

Or is it just because of the OS design? Just read an old OS book from the '80s. That stuff goes far beyond AOS and much of it isn't particularly hard to implement in 68k.

@Thorham:

Hang on a minute... first you say Amiga is "hardware (680x0 + chipset)", then you complain that the OS is "stuck in the past!"  With all due respect, the 680x0 and the classic Amiga chipset are obsolete hardware.

There's plenty of 'modern' things (read through an OS book, and you'll see why) that can be implemented in an efficient way on lower end 680x0 CPUs (but let's skip the 68000).

Even most of the current GUI features are functionally very simple and efficient to implement. The only thing that will be missing is the current eye candy, and some 3D features, and these aren't needed for a much more up to date user experience.

Don't get me wrong, I love the classic Amiga, but if you insist that that is what Amiga is and always will be, the Amiga is a relic of the past, a museum piece used only by die-hard hobbyists.  I can sympathise, but this is not a way forwards.

A dead platform is never the way forward. The part of the Amiga scene that wants to move forward needs to forget about the Amiga and use alternative platforms. Obviously this has been happening for years already. It's just that people keep holding these systems back by sticking to Amiga OS compatibility (which I find quite ludicrous).

In fact I love the 680x0, and I'm about to code some asm in it this afternoon, but it's possibly the least Amiga thing about the Amiga.

Yep, but it's a damned nice CPU to code for from a programmer perspective.

[Thorham]

So then how the hell would it be an Amiga? :/

It wouldn't. Amigas ended with AGA, the other systems are alternative systems that users insist on holding back with AOS derivatives and dated software.

Amiga is a dead end in terms of hardware (and current old software), and users who want more need to realize that they need to break with Amigas and move on or they will be held back.

People who are truly interested in Amigas and still want more need to realize that it's only really going to happen with new software that's technically and functionally better than the, mostly old, programs that are available now. Chipset+680x0 can do much better, but only if high quality software is written from scratch for it (most of the time).

I think what he really meant was rather "backwards compatible"?

No, I mean that people who are not really interested in classic systems have to ditch Amigas and move on, after all, how good are things like AOS4 and MorphOs really? Or AROS? Why would you want to run AOS (or derivatives) on newer hardware anyway? So you can use old programs that are mostly superseded left and right? Not me, that's for sure (I can do that with my Amiga already and don't need a new machine for this).

Newer machines need to be their own platform instead of sticking to AOS (and Amiga itself needs to move away from this as well).

[Thorham]

@Thorham
While the 68020 is capable of better OS functionality, I doubt that it's going to help.  Most of the extended addressing modes are slow on the '020 and '030.  The '040 and '060 fixed that at the expense of some hardware compatibility particularly for floating point.

If Amigas are going to go anywhere, then a new OS+software is needed.

Also, memory protection would slow the real Classic Amigas to a crawl.

Depends on how it's implemented ('030 MMUs can do some neat things), and whether or not it's used for everything (it would be great to turn it on just for programming).

A better solution would be to build software on top of the PNaCl (Portable Native Client) sandbox that is going into the latest Chrome web browsers.

Two problems: 1) This doesn't run on Amigas, 2) What fun is it to write for a browser?

@Thorham: all your objection seems to come from the way you define "Amiga".  You've defined it dead. Other people define it differently.

My definition of Amiga is hardware, namely chipset+680x0, and sadly this is dead until someone buys or licenses Amiga hardware and starts building the things, and that's most likely not going to happen

I'd love to see a new Amiga personally because I think of Amiga not as a thing so much as an ideology.  Although it's also because I feel quite strongly that "the wrong side won", maybe it's just loyalty, but I can't accept that Amiga is dead and the prospect of a new market in ARM powered desktop/laptop/HTPCs makes me think that it has a real chance to get back on its feet again.  If you don't want a new Amiga then, well, just don't buy one, fair enough.

My problem is this: Take the C64 and it's OS, now the Amiga comes along, and they put a C64 like OS on it. This is what's happening with the new alternative machines that superseded Amiga hardware. Those alternative machines are stuck in the past if they stick to the Amiga legacy, instead of just running an emulator.

Want an Amiga? Use/get one. Want newer hardware? Then move on, and do better (because there's room for a lot of improvement that won't happen by sticking to AOS).

And yes, I want a new Amiga, but no one will make one I'll probably get an alternative machine after Amigas die physically (hopefully that won't be for another 10+ years...).

[Thorham]

What I don't get is why people want faster hardware (read: hardware that performs worse than peecees from five years ago) and hold the systems back with obsolete operating systems (yes, AOS and derivatives are obsolete, and I don't much enjoy working with AOS3, especially not seeing how 68K can do MUCH better). It makes no sense, especially if people then call interest in 68k+chipset being stuck in the past.

It seems to me that those people don't really like Amiga, and what they should do is forget about Amigas and buy a ridiculously fast peecee and be done with it.

Why would I want to lock myself into total compatibility with obsolete hardware/software?

Amigas are computers from the 80's and 90's, so they are by definition obsolete.

[Thorham]

I guess it depend what you see as "being Amiga", either you see it as being purely the m68k machine and custom chips or it is the look and feel of a machine pushing the boundaries (as it was at the time).

The look and feel of something that pushes the boundaries, but doesn't, and is years behind, is a very poor substitute for Amigas

if it can capture the "wow" that made me buy my first Amiga 20 years ago.

And everyone knows that that is not going to happen.

I love the fact that I can browse the web on my "classic" which was around before the web as we know it but I think I'd rather see hardware that will attract developers and new users than something that satisfies a vigorous checklist about what an Amiga "should be".

Amigas are what they are (whatever anyone says), and I'd rather see new Amigas (keep dreaming), then some underpowered thing that's supposed to be next gen. If I want next gen, I'll just buy a peecee.

[Thorham]

BTW - Custom chips are so yesterday.
Programmable logic and well written OS/driver code is what drives modern computers.

Then get a new computer and forget about Amiga (the hardware is old and the software is too).