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Author Topic: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License  (Read 29861 times)

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Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« on: November 07, 2017, 08:48:14 PM »
Quote from: Chucky;832739
I have told many times in different forums etc: if vampire was actually compatible (meaning ACTING like the real deal) I would buy 10.. (instead of that one I have. somewhere)

Yeah, I don't have a problem with gunnar getting his wet dreams over designing 68080. If he also had a mode where it would run as a 68040 or 68060 with fpu and mmu.

If he can't do it, then just release the 68080 source and let someone else do it. As he rightly points out "but we think shared joy is a double joy."

Until that happens, it's kinda boring. Drop in replacement cpus for next cube or 68k macs ftw.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 08:51:59 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2017, 11:31:29 PM »
Quote from: Djole;832752
They have their plan and they work on it, accept it or dont.


If they were honest about it then this thread would be dead.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 09:31:47 AM »
Quote from: IanP;832787
It amazes me that people can devote so much time and energy to be negative about a product that claim they have no interest in ("yesterdays newspaper"). If it is not for you, fine state that if you feel the need and move on, don't hang around posting continuous negativity like a bad smell. I'm sure you have better things to be getting on with.

For the record I'm not in favour of the proposal as I see it as a backwards step. If hardware devs want to licence the full Apollo core and provide a full SAGA capable expansion then great. I don't like the idea of cut down and throttled Apollo 68080 boards (at least not for the Amiga).


Your post is a bit of a mixed message, I hope the apollo gestapo are kinder to you.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 05:23:40 PM »
Quote from: Niding;832804
Does/might the added crap throw off timings and functionalities of current 680x0, or is it cause its an unknown variable as to how a routine will actually run?

The timing is off on purpose, which is forgivable, but you could end up writing code that only runs on the 68080 but fails on the 68060 because of race conditions (and vice versa). This can happen on real cpus as well, but the hostility from 68080 supporters indicates that a lot of people don't care if software only runs on 68080 and not 68060. So don't expect anything to work.

Any software taking advantage of the "added crap" can't run on current 680x0 in any case, again the hostility from 68080 supporters indicates they don't care.

Meanwhile anyone writing software that uses 680x0 features that aren't supported by 68080 gets hostility if they request it.

You can't put the 68080 into a nextcube or 68k mac. That doesn't seem to be something that apollo cares about, it's not really 68040/68060 compatible (next and mac require 68040 and won't work with 68060). They would be even better demos of their core, if only they'd support the FPU and MMU (it has been suggested that peoples requests for it are the reason why it hasn't been worked on, which is kinda weird).
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 05:30:21 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 04:59:07 PM »
Quote from: Niding;832866
Jari decided to do the SoftFPU, which set him apart from most of us; instead of just talking/posting on forums, he decided to DO something/code.
This spurred the team to help him, effectively Jari convinced them to change their roadmap cause he put REAL effort into enhancing the Apollo/Vampire expirience.

I wouldn't code SoftFPU because I think it's a backward step, no offence for the work put into it but you shouldn't need any software patches/shims/etc if the CPU is as compatible as they claim.

If gunnar opened the 68080 source to let other people work on the HardFPU then that would be a different matter. He would fine other people willing to help out. He has put himself in an untenable position because he can't deliver what is needed, but he wants to keep ultimate control over it.

Bad management with a promising product but they don't know what to do with it, seems a perfect fit for Amiga. The curse strikes again.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 06:48:06 PM »
Quote from: Niding;832897
Ok.

Its been repeatedly pointed to that FPU will be implimented in 2.7.

It was repeatedly pointed out that we don't need and won't be getting a compatible FPU. Then there was a u turn, but the last I heard they were only going to support 64 bit floats, not 80 bit. Again you don't need 80 bit and won't be getting 80 bit etc etc, maybe there has been another u turn but nothing has been released.

Apparently we still don't need and won't be getting a compatible MMU.

Problem is gunnar spends fpga gates on features he wants to do so there aren't enough for the things that we want. To defend this he has essentially created his own cult.

He wants to license it, but he pisses too many people off with his attitude & then plays the victim. So we'll see how that goes.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:50:42 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2017, 10:58:56 AM »
Quote from: soviet;832974
Who cares what is hidden in there, if make the CPU faster bring it on.

If it means it can't run MacOS or Nextstep?

If your answer is that has nothing to do with Amiga and you therefore don't care, then you're part of the problem.

Quote from: Tellurium;832978
Asking and not trusting is not a good pattern. Whatever the Apollo crew would say, could ever change your mind?

If they stopped deliberately misleading people it would be a start. If they actually delivered on 100% compatibility then I'd support them. Nothing gunnar has ever said has indicated he is interested in 100% compatibility. He's interested in his own agenda and needs enough people behind him to get him there. If it does what you want then I guess you'd be happy to be bribed.

I'm sure gunnar knows how controversial his 100% compatibility claims are, it's similar to the tactics used in the UK/US/Europe with the rise of fascism (Trump/brexit/etc).

Quote from: soviet;832974
Look at the intel management engine ?, you are running full blown minix os inside your chip set and nobody even cared or realized it. And this on "real chips" like you guys love.

You're obviously wrong, or the researchers wouldn't have taken the time to investigate it. Of course I didn't realise the secret minix os was running inside my computer, because it was secret. Even the guy who wrote minix didn't know for sure. I couldn't care about it because I didn't know. I did care that IME existed, but without credible evidence that it was exploitable then it's difficult to do anything about it.

People care now.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 11:24:06 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 08:50:01 PM »
Quote from: IanP;833038
I've never heard of any PPC development happening at Commodore.

That is correct. PowerPC only came to the Amiga after commodore went bankrupt. The first PowerPC chip shipped in an IBM workstation in October 1993, Apple launched the first PowerMac in March 1994, Commodore went bankrupt in April 1994.

Amiga Technologies said they were porting AmigaOS to PowerPC in 1995 along with new machines with Phase 5 providing the cards for existing machines, ESCOM died in 1996 and Phase 5 had to come up with their own software support, which later turned into the PowerUP vs WarpOS war.

WarpOS became standard even though there were really compelling technical reasons why it shouldn't, the same reason Trump gets elected and people love Apollo

Quote from: IanP;833038
CBM was focused on the Hombre chipset using PA-RISC and an AGA/M68K SoC. The SoC would allow cost reduced low end classic Amigas and could be included with a PA-RISC machine for backwards compatibility.

Hombrew was a clean break from the Amiga, it didn't use AGA or 68K at all.

A couple of documents turned up earlier this year "Hombre: Beyond Amiga (October 8th 1993)"

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=87342

It would be nice to see the HDL for Hombre, but it's likely unfinished and contains copyrighted PA-RISC as well. PlayStation was similarly designed in HDL mostly from an LSI library, then cut down. From what I can tell the PlayStation was a better design, I've always felt it was the spiritual successor to the Amiga.

Quote from: IanP;833038
If Commodore had survived these architectures would probably have seen them through to a transition to x86.

And then they'd have died trying to compete with Dell/HP/Compaq/etc.

It's kinda weird that nintendo, sony & microsoft transitioned to PowerPC years later and then Sony & Microsoft have followed apple to x86 as well.

Even the later slim ps2 had a power pc hidden in them, running a software emulation of the IOP (IO Processor, which is also used for running PS1 games).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:11:06 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2017, 09:04:30 AM »
Quote from: Hattig;832741
This thread is everything wrong with the Amiga scene.

Someone who hates something that somebody else has done that does't appeal to their purist ideals (despite the fact that the Moto 68k cores are very different, all have different FPU capabilities, and different MMU implementations), and they just can't stop pointing it out.

That appears to have been missing from the original post.

"We offer hardware developers a
_FREE_ 68080 CORE that is
compatible with the 68040/68060
and is set to about 68040/68060 speed. "

What is wrong with the Amiga scene is that people are still enabling Gunnar despite the lies he has told, it's like you want to be lied to. If the cargo cult stopped, then Gunnar would have to start telling the truth or disappear into obscurity. Maybe people would still buy into it if he told the truth, I guess we'll never know because the enablers won't risk it.

Saying something is compatible means that it's compatible, but it's not compatible. If you have to rely on an alternative definition of compatible then it's a lie.

Quote from: nyteschayde;833054
this

You appear to have missed the point of this thread.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 09:11:00 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2017, 02:33:38 PM »
Quote from: SpaceMonkey;833060
I think you are playing the semantics game. Did the release notes say 100% compatible with all features available er No.

I'm not playing the semantics game, you are playing the semantics game.

If they say compatible with no qualification of compatibility then yes you can safely expect it's 100% compatible.

They know it's not 100% compatible but are prepared to mislead, otherwise why wouldn't they just admit it? Are you saying they are too stupid to know?

Quote from: SpaceMonkey;833060
Does the whole world and his dog know that there is not a like for like MMU currently available.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, Gunnar would simply just have to write the HDL to create a compatible MMU. He refuses.

Quote from: SpaceMonkey;833060
So in your world you are waiting for the mythical phase 5 products to be release and skip merrily to 060 heaven. Back in the real world finding a supply of 060 processors is impossible, it would be easy to find Lord Lucan.

I'm waiting for Gunnar to add an 040 or 060 compatible MMU and FPU. Or for someone else to do an equivalent board that supports it. Unfortunately Gunnar is doing his best to stop either of those things happening.

Quote from: soviet;833062
When the trolls are going to say what is the incompatibility ?.
Because they speak and speak about it but never list what software don't run on the vamp.

That isn't true at all, the only trolls are speaking in favour of Apollo.

If you're serious then lets start with an easy one, NetBSD http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/amiga/

Then how about http://aminet.net/package/util/libs/MMULib

Quite a useful one here http://aminet.net/package/dev/debug/enforcer (Enforcer 37.73, supports 68060). Apparently 68080 is compatible with 68060 and this version of Enforcer supports 68060 so of course it will work (wrong).

I don't know if you really believe what you're saying, or whether you're just trying to be a troll yourself.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 02:42:56 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2017, 04:03:23 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;833068
simply write hdl.. know what? he said its down the priority list, to write hardware mmu compatinility wrapper.

Well that is an improvement, he used to go into melt down when anyone suggested they needed a compatible MMU. I guess we're having an effect, good to know.

Quote from: wawrzon;833068
if you think its immediately important, you can contibute to funding it.

How?

Quote from: wawrzon;833068
other than that i dontt think he owes you some feature or other.

He owes it to anyone who buys one due to misleading advertising.

Quote from: wawrzon;833068
you can simply stay away from his offer, rather than trying to scare him away and disapoint the majortity of those, fond of such an exceptional option.

If he stopped lying then I wouldn't have commented. Why don't you convince him to stop lying? It would be much more productive.

Quote from: wawrzon;833068
yeah gunnar tries to prevent implementation of an fpu.. and whats that:
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=10876&z=VbGYA8
O: ??!

What I said was he is trying to make sure nobody else produces an alternative, by lying to get people to buy into his product.
The last I heard even the compatible FPU wasn't designed to give the correct results due to difference in precision. If the complaints have made him change his mind then that is a bonus, you might want to check though because he might just not mentioning it anymore.

Quote from: wawrzon;833068
hard time trying to find an mmu dependant amiga software?

No, I listed a few plus there are more if I wanted to spend time on it & FWIW the press release specifies nothing about amiga software either. It says "compatible with the 68040/68060" so Next Step would be another piece of software.

Maybe he should have said "compatible with software that I decide is worthwhile running".

Quote from: wawrzon;833068
i agree mutools would be nice to have, but it starts to be boring that you guys always refer to it and netbsd as support of your rants, coul go find another example to entertain us a bit more;)

Right, so you admit that you only do this to troll. Good to know. This is not a rant, it's a response to the whinny apollo trolls rants.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 04:13:16 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 01:16:45 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;833102
Only problem with AROS is that it doesn't bring this emotional "load" as AmigaOS (same with MorphOS).


I don't see why not, you can even run AROS on 68k. There were a few mistakes they made along the way because they had all that x86 cpu grunt, plus a few other things that need optimising.

The main problem with AROS is that it's too similar to AmigaOS, so multicore & memory protection is an issue.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2017, 11:20:05 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;833087
I am 100% sure that no solution we come with on our own will even come close to a modern X64 CPU though.


An atom on an A1200 accelerator card booting a 68k emulator would be very interesting.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2017, 09:12:07 AM »
It's a weird week. Trump says he's only ever tried to be friends with Kim Jong Un and Gunnar says it's clear that Apollo will run standard Amiga Linux builds (unless he's talking about an Apollo only Linux build that is only compatible with user land 68k Linux software, but that would be misleading and dishonest....).

In september Gunnar posted this:

"68080 follows this MOTOROLA tradition.
68080 has an MMU and its updated to be modern."

Which makes his comment about Linux compatibility less clear.

I guess I better wait until the V4 is released and see whether the MMU and FPU is compatible. Going back to the point of this thread, is it the "V2" or "V4" core that is being offered?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 09:44:27 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2017, 11:53:19 AM »
Quote from: Niding;833164
And Gunnar has had 2 cups of coffe today it seems. He decided to go into more details about the MMU mechanics of legacy and Apollo

Essentially, he still doesn't want to do it.

"To provide a old fashioned 1 dimensional memory view to old AMIGA MMU applications - a clean solution would be to provide an sub MMU with 1 dimension inside the multidimensional MMU view.

This feature would transparently support old applications.
This can be done but is _NOT_ in planned for any releases coming soon."

The rest seems like a sales pitch & I don't think I am the target audience of that pitch.

Quote from: grond;833161
If it has a relatively small FPGA, the FPU would likely have more microcoded (i.e. transparently software-emulated) instructions than if a larger FPGA was used.

Are you referring to FEMU as micro code? Because that is misleading, I assume it's because the original 68882 was microcoded (as was the 68000) and it makes it an easier sell.

How would that work if you wanted to put the FPGA on a chip carrier with 68040 compatible bus for inserting into a Power Mac or Next Cube?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 12:02:43 PM by psxphill »