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Author Topic: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4  (Read 74077 times)

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Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« on: August 06, 2017, 09:43:11 AM »
Quote from: IanP;829146
Vampire V4 was announced, what 3 days ago

If you're comparing the initial announcement of the two, it's June 2015 for Amiga Reloaded and October 2016 for Apollo Standalone.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=2723

Neither have shipped yet. Vampire production has always struggled to meet demand, Jens has had more success (but he's not perfect).

Time will tell.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 10:34:50 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 09:12:44 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;829197
Lol Vampire is a hobby project with little funding. Individual Computers (jens s.) is a real company with tooling and facilities not even comparable.


Yes and both have pros and cons. My post was a reply to someone who was comparing what you say is not comparable.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 12:34:13 PM »
Quote from: JJ;829207
So the standalone will basically be an Amiga with non of the expansion slots.  What is the benefit of this hardware emulation over much cheaper faster software emulation ?
 
 Just trying to work out the point of the standalone

latency and timing, it's the only point of using an fpga for emulation rather than a program running on a general purpose computer.

The gates in an fpga are dedicated to a particular job, so they can monitor your joystick inputs and run code and display video simultaneously. An emulator on a general purpose computer multiplexes all it's gates, so it will be doing different tasks at different times.

Some LCD TV upscalers have terrible latency too, so you should compare it to an Amiga on a CRT. If you can't tell the difference (and some people cannot) then you don't need to spend the extra money.

There is also the cool factor, but agai
n if you don't feel that then it's not for you.

Some people hate emulators running on a general purpose computer for not being authentic, for other reasons than timing and latency, which is more of a religious thing. Using FPGA for emulation is no real different, if the original hardware had analogue quirks (like undocumented behaviour changed based on temperature) then an FPGA is going to be just as bad at emulating that as software on a general purpose computer.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 12:37:16 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 01:21:29 PM »
Quote from: JJ;829209
Thanks for a reasoned response.  So go for an accelerator if you want the geninue-ish amiga feel.  As I guess these are quite far off in compatibility ?


It depends on your priority. For games then the apollo people will argue that it's better for compatibility with 68000 games than a real cpu is.

However if you want to run bsd or shapeshifter, then you want an mmu and vampire/apollo doesn't support those at all.

It's less clear for software that needs an fpu, supposedly that exists but either doesn't work or hasn't been tested enough so it's disabled. Whether it will ever be enabled or not is another matter, they'll probably say that you don't really need to run that stupid software anyway.

I'm still in two minds. If they supported an 060 CPU, MMU & FPU with no extras with an additional core that had all their custom extras then I'd be in. Even if running the authentic 060 meant I couldn't run software that wouldn't run on a real 060.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 02:39:27 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;829212
Only Amiga OS has lacked a 'software' FPU.  These were all part of Apple and even Atari IIRC.  Motorola has libraries written to handle FPU instructions when an FPU wasn't present.

Motorola has FPU packages to emulate the instructions missing in the 040 & 060 FPU so that 68881/68882 software would still run. The 040 package was shipped with AmigaOS in the 68040.library and in MacOS. I've never heard of a full FPU emulator for 68k until FEMU came along.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 02:48:03 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 05:49:26 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;829217
They are not emulators.  Just code to handle trapped cpu missing instruction exceptions.

That is an emulator, it pretends to do the same job as something else.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 08:14:40 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;829226
I don't consider patching in a jump-address to a subroutine/function an "emulation".

Those subroutine/function are emulating FPU instructions.

The name "FEMU" gives a good impression that it's emulation.

It's not just a one off either, x87emu predates it by decades https://github.com/bitblaze-fuzzball/fuzzball/tree/master/extras/x87-emu
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:22:49 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 08:28:03 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;829232
But that proves the point of why an MMU will never be a must-have feature of OS3.X...  Virtual memory becomes a moot point when you can run on a couple of megs and suddenly now your hardware suddenly come equipped with .5GB to 4GB on-board...

An MMU was never a must have feature for AmigaOS because there were very few Amigas that commodore shipped with an MMU.

However it's very much a nice to have feature. In my opinion you may as well make it 68040 or 68060 compatible because then you have software. But they have a religious disagreement with that.

Don't forget that OS3.X is not the only OS that runs on the Amiga. There are two unix versions that would be nice to run.

I would also love to see a sega mega drive emulator for amigaos that runs the game code natively and using an mmu to trap the hardware accesses. I don't know if real AGA would be quick enough, but SAGA should be.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:54:32 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 12:39:42 AM »
Quote from: Niding;829244
Its not a religious disagreement from what Ive seen Gunnar say on the matter.

There seems to be several considerations;

a) Time and manpower to do all the "to do items".

b) Gunnar/the team wants hardware that runs alot/most of the software available, BUT at the same time opens up for future developments on the software side. Making sure the FPU for example has functionalities beyond what was the norm in the 90s.

Exactly. He has always had a hatred for the FPU and MMU compatibility and the fan boys think he's the second coming because he added some opcodes that accelerate some software that doesn't exist yet.

The worst thing you can ever do is have someone with a strong opinion about things and a bunch of enablers.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:41:51 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 01:21:17 AM »
Quote from: Niding;829256
Eeeeh, you psxphill is the one assigning strong feelings in this disscussion.

I'm just pointing it out. Whether you choose to ignore the signs is up to you. It killed natami.

Gunnar is on a crusade to get apollo in embedded designs. The Amiga is a test bed and advertising, so fpu/mmu compatibility isn't that important for him. I know I'm not the only one who understands that. Go talk to matthey and kolla.

I have no idea what your point is about monitors, it doesn't seem to relate to anything I said.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 01:42:55 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 08:24:27 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver;829419
And of course it doesnt help that the project leader has a lot of communication issues, despite the good will of its team and its community.

He is communicating perfectly well, it's what he is communicating that is the issue.

He is a big fish in a small pond. There are loads of people in the world that could do what he is doing or are even better than him. But they are too busy earning money.

Normally it would then come down to it being a hobby where you appeal to the greatest audience, but he's not interested in that either.

It's a bit like how Trumps supporters in the US have enabled him to be in a position that he is not capable of dealing with. Sure the US is likely to survive Trump, and the apollo products are being released. It will just be less good than it could have been. Trump may have actually been a decent president if his supporters weren't alt right, sexist, racist, biggots etc as he would have more reason to appeal to decent people.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 08:27:05 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2017, 09:53:10 AM »
Quote from: Niding;829428
Same goes for Vampire. There are plenty of issues with AOS3, and things that doesnt run as everyone wants it to. The team knows, but as we all know, its WORK IN PROGRESS.

I understand it's work in progress, but it's not progressing towards a product that would be good for the amiga community as a whole. We could go round and round in circles with me trying to explain why it's not good, but it would be like trying to explain to a pro trump supporter why upsetting mexico is a bad idea. People who don't understand it, don't want to understand it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201007/why-changing-somebody-s-mind-or-yours-is-hard-do

Quote from: Niding;829428
But as usual the comments is often followed by "omg omg omg, lol, useless, crap, fanboi" etc.

I only started calling them fan boys after years of dreadful behaviour by the pro apollo supporters acting childishly towards any suggestion that gunnar disagreed with. The behaviour comes from the top down, so get gunnar to fix his attitude and the problems will all disappear. Good luck with that.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 09:57:43 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2017, 10:10:28 AM »
Quote from: Niding;829430
Maybe we should raise above the kid like behaviour instead of reeinforcing it? Just a thought ;)

There is no point in unilaterally doing it, because then it's seen as a sign of a weakness in the argument. Like taking a knife to a gun fight, "you're so stupid you think you can have a reasonable discussion with me, therefore your argument must be false".

It has to be all parties on both sides, you'll find the people who want Apollo to be the best it can be will fall in when gunnar and his supporters act reasonably.

In any event. Calling someone, who is exhibiting fan boi tendancies, a fan boi is on the tame side compared to what comes back if you give a reasoned argument for why a compatible fpu and mmu would be a good idea.

And yeah it does suck, because I want something good to buy.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 10:43:59 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 12:05:16 PM »
Quote from: Hattig;829556
On the other hand, these people are mostly doing it for not a lot, if they want to have some fun (likely hardware ALU blocks on the FPGA made wiring up AMMX a lot easier than doing a full FPU implementation) who am I to complain...

Gunnar may not be making much money now, but he has always been clear that he wants to market his softcore to the embedded market and that he makes decisions based on that rather than every single piece of 30 year old Amiga software. It's in his interest to appeal to the type of people who will evangelise his core.

The friction comes in because there are enough people who will be happy to see vampire as an expensive whdload card, with the added promise of the Amiga having completely new development that will make it viable against PC's. They fight off anyone who tries to get FPU/MMU on the table because they are scared that it will upset Gunnar. Who sees this support and has no reason to expand his base, because it's enough.

Which cuts out software that would actually quite cool to run. Because it's closed source, because of the embedded licensing, then Gunnar is able to exert whatever control he wants.

Hopefully someone else will produce a core for the vampire that does appeal to me.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 09:06:29 AM »
Quote from: Niding;829671
-I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.


Why do you hate Indivision?