Open source PPC laptop bounty

[Iggy]

Will it run AOS 4.x ?
Not much point for me otherwise.

That is up to Hyperion.
But Timothy De Groot is aware of the project and has made the comment that the matter is open for discussion.

However, you need hardware before you can port software.

[Iggy]

I wouldn't start quoting prices just yet, and those seem a little on the low side for the components being considered, but I'm really hopeful that we can pull this off.
And I just exchanged a couple of messages with Roberto myself last night and this morning to confirm we were still planning on using MXM form factor video boards (which could allow for future upgradability).

As far as a comparison to X64 goes, this cpu is slightly slower than my i7 laptop, but supports twice as many threads.
Under Linux, it should be more than adequate.
And there is some interest amongst the community in maintaining big endian PPC linux distros (which would benefit all PPC Mac and AmigaOne users as well).

[Iggy]

I think you are missing the point . The architecture of the chips is not open. Can you supply complete schematics for the GPU and CPU? I think not.

Actually, schematics are not a problem.
The proposal calls for the use of a standard MXM video card, and Acube has offered to prepare the initial motherboard schematics (that would be the first funded step).

The list of components that has been posted elsewhere is reasonably accurate, but I wanted to clarify what was meant when "Radeon HD graphics" were mentioned. As this can be changed or upgraded.

There's no IP issues that I am aware of that would prevent moving forward.

[Iggy]

...If you want to run AOS4, then you would be better served by getting a cheap pc laptop and running the latest WinUAE. That is perfect for emulting a PPC Amiga, and excitingly/upsetingly (depending upon your position), it runs faster than my actual BlizzPPC....

Yes, but not as well as a recent AmigaOne, and with the limitations inherent with emulating older hardware.

And as to expense, I could get a 14" 64bit ARM laptop for a fraction of the cost, but it won't run PPC software.

But you ARE right, the only operating systems that will initially work with this are Linux based.

No one said we were practical people. :hammer:

[Iggy]

I'm sorry, I am unaware of any "limitations inherent with emulating older hardware"?

WinUAE, is far more compatible with my Amiga software than any single real Amiga, and I have great difficulty finding a TV which will even accept a 15Khz RGB signal anymore... not to mention the nightmare that is 27 year old floppy disks.

Uh, did you read the post above yours?
You're emulating old hardware (albeit faster), while better hardware is in use now.
All the points mentioned about modern video are the crux of the biscuit.

And while you could certainly enable better functionality (eventually) in UAE, its still just a downgrade from running native X64 software.

[Iggy]

...No, I was replying to Iggy who was trying (rather pathetically), to suggest that this Linux PPC laptop would be in any way better and more useful than an inexpensive PC (or a pretty MacBook) for use by an Amiga user.

This Linux PPC laptop is little more than a vanity project, which offers us as Amiga users very little.

If I an viewed by someone living in an apartment in Europe as 'pathetic' while living in my own home (with more than enough room for whatever I care) so be it.

At least I would never make SUCH a weak statement as to refer to MacBooks as 'pretty'.
I mean, not to be snarky, but what next, advocating a nice Michael Kors watch to accessorize your new Rose Gold MacBook Air?
You could color coordinate everything with your iPhone, pretty AND pathetic (or pretty pathetic).

Frankly, I think that Microsoft's Surface is a better platform, and I'm looking forward to the rugged functionality of the a retro Thinkpad.

Because for follows function, and 'pretty' Macs have proven to lack utility.

You can continue to advocate the Pi, I notice its made no realistic impact on our community.

I'll continue to use 68K software on legacy and FPGA hardware, and NG software on dedicated platforms (which don't have to be that expensive).

And my PCs...they run Windows, Linux, and occasionally MacOS, but not AmigaOS, because as I've said, its silly to downgrade them that way.

[Iggy]

please keep such language out of things.   This would suggest that being gay is somehow derogatory

JJ...changed the word you objected to.
However, my favorite Uncle was gay and I have a friend who is gay who refers to flamboyant gays as faggots.
Would you prefer that term?

Because that IS the direction I'm going.
People being caricatures of themselves, preferring style over substance, and judging a computing device on how 'pretty' it is, rather than how functional it is.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with personal style, just that when its taken to its extreme, you look more clownish than someone making a statement.

[Iggy]

The lack of response shows my verbiage may have been perceived as overly judgmental or hostile.
Admittedly, I DO tend toward excess, therefore with some apoplectic sense of the need for an apology, can I just plead the fifth and ask that we turn to the subject at hand?

Jim

[Iggy]

To be fair this argument is bordering on I can't be racist I have black friends.  But lets move on and back to the conversation at hand
 
 I was being a bit of a tit and have used that word when I shouldn't many times because it was in common usage growing up, so have no right to pick others up on it.

Actually, it closer to "I can use the 'n' word because I got a pass from my black  buddy"...but you're right, lets move on.
And I don't use either word much, as I really do have close friends that are...uh, lets drop it.

Besides, I think you all get my point about color coordinating your laptop, watch, and phone without picking on any specific group.

'Pretty' laptops...this project we are discussing is based on a standard laptop case that is not as artistically refined as a MacBook, but the X64 version does have room for a separate graphics board which is nice.

And its a nice rugged case.

I've just received word from Roberto Innocenti that they don't want to promise the incorporation of an MXM card in production models yet.
But as plans for the prototypes currently calls for the gpu not to be incorporated onto the motherboard, a solution like that seems a strong possibility.

but

on an amiga site?

O..K, you DO have a point there.

[Iggy]

This is exactly my point.

The Vampire and the associated FPGA CPU projects are of immediate and direct benefit to the Amiga community. Work was undertaken at the expense of the individuals involved. Two key things this project doesn't have.

If this was an FPGA laptop, where it had no CPU or GPU, but simply a couple of FPGAs (to be set up with any cores the user so desired) then it would be far more interesting and exciting to the Amiga community.

That would actually be interesting even outside the Amiga community.
Great idea, how it would interface with the display panel could prove tricky, and most chassis' these days rely on USB ports for connectivity.
But that is a really good, and original idea.
My apologies for the off base comments, that IS sharp.

[Iggy]

The Vampire 500 V2 really isn't very far away from this idea already.

Simply add a LVDS for direct LCD display output, a USB hub, and some power management chips, then engineer it into a laptop chassis compatible form factor.

A cheaper and more interesting project, by a long way.

-Edit- I'm not trying to be negative, I just can't see any positives with respect to a PPC Linux laptop.

Yes, well I was being a bit of an ass, especially considering my core beliefs.
Beyond that, I know further PPC projects are not that practical.
I explored the idea awhile ago, and even got as far as enlisting Bill Buck who approached Freescale about the idea.

I am reasonably sure the PPC laptop will gain some traction, as the first step is quite likely to be financed.
And I'm one of the people that would want one.
Then again, I'm also one of the people that sees the value of the X5000 over the A1222.

But you're right that an FPGA laptop might have broader appeal.
I could see that being used for multiple cores, not just Amiga based projects.
Spreading out that way would offer an opportunity to enlist people from outside the Amiga community as well as having appeal to our core constituency.

The saving grace with the PPC project is the interest outside of the Amiga community, primarily from the Linux community.
But an FPGA laptop would have even broader appeal in multiple segments of the retro market.

Portable Amigas, Apples, Amstrads , heck I'm still in the 'A's'...the potential for your idea is massive.
Again, really sharp.

[Iggy]

Maybe its not going to be made for the masses, but I don't care about that, I think it be nice to have real PowerPC laptop, it be nice to sit outside working some program when it really hot inside.

Yes I can emulate AmigaOS4.1 on X64 laptop, but speed and lack of features, I just won't be the same, I just low the idea of a laptop.

I guess it selfish thing, but looks like there are other who also like go places. even if did just run Linux this something I like to see, I like PowerPC to have some kind of future outside of embedded, it's nice CPU to program for just like 680x0 CPU is.

Thanks.
To address those two comments, when recently has any element of the Amiga community felt itself constrained by 'realities'?
Yes, there are more powerful platforms (than either PPC or FPGA).
Further, if I wanted a cheap laptop, I've been offered some great deals on ARM based units, and I can get X64 hardware at a pretty good price.

And emulation on ARM or X64 platforms certainly has its place, but native hardware really does it for me.
Luckily recently I've had older Apple PPC hardware to use that has remain surprisingly competitive.
While I'm an advocate of the X5000, a comparison between PowerMac G5 and more recent PPC system is enlightening.

BUT, I don't have a problem with higher price, limited production system aimed at our market.
And I'm open to anything Aeon, the Power Progrees Community, or the Apollo team dream up, including a potential FPGA laptop.
After all, I already have a few hundred invested in FPGA hardware and its a better solution for me than mainstream hardware or emulation.
Then there's the 'fun' aspect of having dedicated hardware in a format it wasn't originally offered in (ie portable).

[Iggy]

I have a PPC laptop already. It can run Linux and an old version of MacOS (10.5).

The laptop being proposed in this thread is based on an embedded CPU, it isn't even in the same class as my multicore 64bit Arm devices which run Debian Linux, Android and even Windows 10.

Put simply, this PPC Linux laptop doesn't bring anything to the party. It doesn't even run AOS4.

It you want to dream, don't dream so small.

Actually, its a 64 bit, four core, dual threaded cpu (for eight concurrent threads), which if you compare it to current ARM cpus doesn't come off that bad.
Although it WON'T run Windows 10.
Then again, I have better hardware than an ARM platform for that.

And it could run PPC NG software (if the OS' were ported), something ARM can only do by emulating older hardware.

And I have PPC Apple laptops too. I just don't run OSX on them, as the OS isn't terribly efficient.
Come to think of it, even though I had to struggle to get it to work, I don't use OSX on more powerful PPC desktops either, I use Linux.
It allows me to use more modern video cards than OSX supports.
And the PowerBook is based on the Radeon 9800 gpu, with a single cpu core.
While the proposed laptop will run slightly faster, with eight times the concurrent threads, and modern Radeon HD graphics (which I'd definitely prefer over an integrated gpu in an ARM Soc).

Although...the ARM hardware IS cheaper.

Either way, to each his own.
Dude, I much prefer having a discussion with you based on facts and statistics.

[Iggy]

sure. just it has nothing to do with any "reality check". according to what people write none behind two amigalike ppc oses has been contacted so far, to check if they would port their system.

Actually...as I've already stated, Timothy De Groot has already made a positive statement about the fact that a port of OS4 would be considered.
And I already know at least one MorphOS developer who is interested in owning one.

Beyond that, many of the people supporting this are from the Linux community, and are more concerned with making sure that there is support there.
With more modern PPC based hardware, Linux ports may be maintained that support big endian PPC processors, benefiting the owners of Aeon and Acube hardware (as well as legacy Macs).

So your 'reality check' is purely your own reality, and there are times when I'm not sure we share the same one.

While I can interact rationally with bloodline, you don't appear to want to back up your opinion with facts.
And the fact is, there's interest in this, so its moving forward.

[Iggy]

The only PPC laptop I need, and a fine piece of hardware it is!

I always liked the way those looked and rather wish they were supported by MorphOS.
I do have an iBook, not as stylish (I actually had to avoid 'pretty', so now I'm really feeling foolish), but a bit more powerful (with a 1.42 GHz G4 and R300 graphics).

Apple PPC laptops were actually pretty solid, and I'd love to see OS4 support for them, as the models that are supported under MorphOS run great.

Again, what we are proposing is slightly faster than the fastest Powerbook, with eight times the potential number of concurrent threads, and more modern graphics. As well as using a 64 bit, rather than a 32 bit, processor.