To Vampire or not

[Iggy]

no you entertain yourself and Kolla

that is not better

And yes I remember comments from you that downtalk Aros. I will look for it just for the fun to proof you wrong

You do that, it will keep you occupied.
And in the meanwhile, I'll still be supporting NG OS' (even though I've got my preferences, the worst that you're going to find is that I've placed AROS second). :hammer:

[Iggy]

Adding to what Djole just wrote, there was a comment in the now deleted and restarted FPU thread on the Apollo-Core forum that modern software for floating point seldom uses raw FPU functions anyway but instead usually uses SSE2 on the Intel as a minimum so that 4 times the computation can take place.  I doubt there is room on the current generation of FPGAs to do a full floating point vector unit so it is likely that Gunnar is just finishing up what he can do with the current generation before he even thinks about starting the next generation.  Sometimes I wish I had his discipline to finish one thing before starting the next.

Thanks Sam, that's all I've ever said (or whined depending on your POV :angry:).

Okay.  I have my answer and really appreciate those who were able to stay on target.

However, this thread has become just another fanboy argument so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD"

I think I mentioned that awhile ago (that you'd already had your answer), so you have a point.
But I don't let character assassination go easily.

And since apps under AROS68K often require an fpu...

Anyway, I guess we aren't supposed to ask for it, even if its been mentioned as an intended feature.
So, for now (since the guy that started the thread DID get his answer), I'll let it drop.
And those that want to remind Kolla, SamCrow, myself (or anyone else that's brought it up) what b*stards we are for mentioning it, go for it (he whined ;-) ).

[Iggy]

interesting. how have you discovered that? own experience or assumptions as customary among aros complainers?

Fascinating...doing your Vulcan impression, are you?
Perhaps requires is too strong a phrase, would you prefer can use (and often runs better with) an FPU?

Funny, I didn't think it was much of a complaint, asking for support for instructions that have been with us for decades.

Are you sure that isn't a matter of you being an apologist vs my being a "complainer"?

[Iggy]

And to quote the good book: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."

I'd also rather see this thread get locked.

Oddly enough, so would I, as I (myself) seem to be the ping-pong ball.
And to quote another passage "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth".

I can do that just as well as you...
Now, can you explain Isaiah 45:5 to me, since it seems to credit God with disaster and the creation of evil.

[Iggy]

aros software requires fpu as much as amiga software. that is usually then when its sensible. it doesnt require fpu by design. on aros 68k you would likely mostly want to use genuine amiga software, simply because it is a much larger choice. in this case requirements would simply be the same.



no. at this point im simply informing you about the state of affairs and correcting your wrong assumptions according to the subject i have obviously more experience with than you.

Your grasp of the "obvious" misses a few points.
A developer targeting AROS specifically, may very well be porting code from X86 AROS to AROS 68K, so floating point routines would be likely.
AROS while it is an AmigaOS analogue, should have to potential to surpass AmigaOS in capability.
And as about 20% of all Amiga software supports an FPU, its entirely possible that software specifically designed with AROS in mind could exceed that percentage.

SO, before you write off at least 1/5th of all of our software...

Also, as to your experience level, with AROS 68K I have no doubt, with 68K platforms in general, its really unlikely.
My company was building its own hardware when most of you were focused on playing games with your A500s.
Which appears to be the same focus many of you still have, since those are the demos you show on YouTube.
And since games rarely require a FPU, you're not really likely to be too worried about it. Are you?

Now as for something like Lightwave or Aladdin4D...
(Or anything that might require heavy mathematics)...
Obviously the Vampire (running AROS OR AmigaOS) is still going to be at a disadvantage.

SO, instead of trying to distract others from the point I've made, why not stop being an apologist, and admit that floating point support would be useful?

This isn't a "wah, you're not being fair" issue, or a "uh, you just don't like AROS" issue. Its a simple matter of a feature set being missing from your cpu. Its a HARDWARE issue (btw - that's the topic, hardware).

When you're ready to stop pointing fingers or pontificating...

[Iggy]

You are constantly confusing the Apollo Core with the 080 in the Vampire despite the fact that you have been told several times that there is a difference. And yes, you have managed to find a couple of quotes where the two were confused by Gunnar himself. Congratulations.  Again: the Apollo Core does have an FPU. If you are looking for a softcore to license and for some reason don't want to use an ARM, PPC or whatever-softcore, you can ask Gunnar for a quote. And you can have it with ColdFire-compatibility or without. The 080 in the Vampire is derived from the Apollo Core which doesn't mean it is identical to it.

I have never seen that statement anywhere.
Can you verify it? Because frankly that interests me more than Vampire, particularly if they have some Coldfire compatibility (although who knows how they address overlapping instructions).
And, if there were issues with the core's fpu, how reliable is the Apollo core as a stand alone?

[Iggy]

It's likely an either-or option. Perhaps you could ask for a hardware switch. I'd suppose that's just a matter of the license contract and the moneys involved.     I'm not sure I understand. You mean you suspect that the Apollo Core is not as thoroughly debugged as a softcore you would license from ARM Ltd.? That could well be.

Thanks, worth knowing.
Maybe I will get back in touch with Gunnar and discuss this.
There could be some pretty broad applications.

BTW - You don't know which Coldfire family they are targeting, do you (V1, V2, etc.)?

[Iggy]

Unfortunately not.

No big deal, its not a primary consideration, and its likely to be Coldfire V1 (as that is available publicly).

How is work progressing on adapting the core to an '020 socket?

[Iggy]

No such project. The v1200 would not connect onto the processor like the v600 does but to the A1200's expansion port. AFAIK the core is preprared for 32bit access to chipmem/Amiga-bus.

Well, the Amiga bus is essentially based on a 68000 processor, which could limit applications, but the A1200's expansion port ought to be similar to Zorro3 (I'm not that familiar with it).

Any input here guys?

[Iggy]

...I think there should be a Topic called "I hate the Apollo \ Vampire because ....." for some people on this thread.

As "some people", I get tired of the self justifying BS of various people in different Amiga "camps".
In particular this "I don't care about the floating point unit" crap.

The non-standard fpu is the reason I'm not buying the A1222/Tabor.

And Vampire doesn't interest me without an fpu.
Doesn't mean I "hate" anything, just that I have different requirements than you.

In fact, that thought that this could grow into a replacement for the Amiga itself intrigues me.

Once the A1200 Vampire is released, I'd like to see if it will work in a system with a PCI bus board.

[Iggy]

...Simplified for your needs.

Gracias, that helps.
And "simplified"?  It does suit me. :lol:

A1200 expansion=EC'020, eh?

That could work.

[Iggy]

as if it was everybodys interest, what you are buying and what not.

You, I don't care about, other's purchases I want to know about, and the reasoning that drew them to that purchase, so yes I feel the need to explain my logic.

You're always free not to read it (or comment on it). :hammer:

[Iggy]

So...how large IS the full Apollo core?

BTW - Most of this info is completely new to me, so I appreciate that after much pain, we are now discussing it.

IF the plan is to continue to enhance the Vampire project with bigger, faster FPGAs, with more features implemented from this core (as well as features yet unimplemented), THEN, of course you have my full support.

AND, I might even be will to excuse some of the sky-high hyperbole.

[Iggy]

Will the new core have a remote start like my car? I heard it somewhere.

No, you misinterpreted that.
It will start your car remotely. :lol:

Look there's a lot of friction here about the Vampire project, but it IS a hobbyist project.

If you want real drama about a commercial endeavor you need to look at the BigRAM thread.

[Iggy]

wtf? jens forgot to mention that it will be slow as hell and people are climbing the walls? i doubt that.  dont really remember customers being disappointed with this gimmick as much as audience commenting on every development of apollo core or vampire, be it the raam amount it comes with. which is actually a good sign.

Not so much that its slow, as they simply haven't been able to get it to work.

And a lot of my commentary on the Vampire project is related to my lack of understanding about how separate the Apollo team and the Vampire team are.

All the hype from Gunnar doesn't help, or the editing of threads destroying their continuity. But, long term this particular FPGA project could do a lot of good.

Although...its still not going to replace my MorphOS hardware. :hammer:

[Iggy]

I'm actually an 68K fanatic, which by default makes me a fan of the Amiga, but "beloved" might be an exaggeration for my attachment to the design.

So your information, at least to me, has been rather encouraging.

Plus, the Apollo work can definitely be used in other projects, so its of added interest to me.

Thanks for clearing things up.