X5000 systems

[Iggy]

i think you have answered your question yourself: it simply is a machine for ppc hobbyists.

 
 Frankly, I'm not sure what you think the last decade has brought us in terms of technology, as I can update a decade old PC to run current operating systems and software with no problem.
 
 My G5 PowerMac has PCIe slots and runs a fairly current version of Linux.
 I can use it relatively interchangeably with the i7 laptop I am typing on right now.
 
 So what are we missing?
 DDR4, USB 3.0, Intel cpus?
 Go play with your PCs and pretend you have something superior.
 
 I've been using computers since the '70's and I'm SO tired of this kind of bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!.

[Iggy]

Well they trying to keep price down, it's small production run.
The hardware is for AmigaOS4.x,

if you want to run Linux or Windows you can buy a normal PC, this not for you.

Well said sir!
 Its an apples and oranges situation.
 PC hardware is a cheap commodity.
 
 This stuff isn't badly priced for a small run of specialized boards.
 
 I'm completely happy with it.
 
 And I'm sure we can adopt things like USB3.0 (which is available via PCIe plug in cards) once the software to support it is developed.

[Iggy]

another time, you have answered your own question in advance i guess, plus others will correct you. it rather justifies my kallikles like position here.

"you have answered your own question in advance i guess"
 
 Curious reference to Kallikeles there, but I'll leave sophistry out of this.
 Your 'guess' is way off, that list was sarcasm.
 
 I'll leave it to other to follow the continuous regime of updating hardware that brings no significant improvement to the table.
 I can't think of anything in the software world that requires the over the top power that todays best hardware has.
 And I'm certainly not going to upgrade in order to play DX11 or 12 games (then again, I'm frankly not much of a gamer - its kind of a silly activity for an adult).  
 
 So, again, the question IS, what in the last ten years has been introduced that requires an upgrade to gain productivity?
 
 Sure, legacy Amiga hardware is obsolete, even if it has its retro appeal.
 
 But anything produced in the last ten years will run software that has adequate utility for the real world.
 So short of playing 'mine's bigger than yours' in some weird ego contest, what does following your logic offer me?
 
 I have PCs.
 And I'm no longer stupid enough to pay for the absolute best, most current, or top of the line hardware.
 And I have my alternative equipment, where the main problem is software availability, the hardware is entirely adequate.
 This is the same problem we had in the '80s and '90s (and it ain't changing).
 
 So if you want to point out the fallacy of trying to justify the use of NG systems, you ought to be attacking us on the software front, because the hardware is fine.

[Iggy]

yawn.. whether the world answeres or not. if you dont need the current technology, 64bit, 32bit , 16bit or 8 bit or no computer at all, including no utilities and games at all, even if not the recent ones, be my guest. simply dont advertise it as all of above.

I don't think you've noticed it, but sometimes your posts are nearly indecipherable.

I have been using computers since 8 bit systems were the norm, I worked for a company that built 16/32 bit 68K systems, and I'm using modern hardware.
And btw, I had 64 bit AMD based hardware, when the majority of PC buyers were still dumb enough to be considering Intel crap like 32bit Pentium 4s systems.
I just don't see the point in continuing to march along pretending that the last ten years have really continued to prove Moore's law when I fact all they've really proven is that manufacturers need continued sales .

Honestly, has Windows improved since Win7 (which is really just a polished NT derivative)? Win8, horrible. Win8.1, only VERY slightly less. Win10, makes me wish I was using Win7.
And 8 or more core cpus, ridiculous. Software still doesn't make use of more than two to three at best and single user OS' are still really bad at threading processes to do much better.

And software. Office productivity apps, browsers, utilities...what real improvements do you see in these? Because frankly, the improvements seem incredibly minimal to me. In fact, sometime learning to adjust to the changes in their interfaces is a far bigger PITA than is justified by those minor improvements.

So, like I said, you want to pretend that I need to follow your lead, you go right ahead, but don't look back behind you, because I have a mind of my own and its served me well in the choices I've made so far, so I won't be there.

[Iggy]

I thought many cores was good for multitasking when using many apps at the same time. So the system doesnt get clogged.

 Up to a point, but in most situations they sit unused.
 I am breaking up the components of a dual quad core Xeon system right now for sale on eBay.
 While it was in use, if you observed the cpu metering software, the majority of time only two cores saw significant loads.
 
 Software under single user OS' just is not threaded well enough.
 With the number of modules typically running, Windows and OSX should do a much better job of this, but the simple fact is they don't.
 
 This situation has been gradually improving, but right now the real performance gains of going above a four core cpu are fairly minimal.
 
 As to other 'developments' in the personal computing world...
 Well Apple is still developing its version of NextStep, OSX, while Microsoft continue to pass off OS' based on further polishing on the NT kernel.
 Nothing really significant has happened in cpus since AMD created the X64 instruction set, except that Intel got its act together.
 And we're all still in the same camps we we've been in for the last ten years.
 
 Progress...yeah right.
 
 So I should continue to regularly replace perfectly useful hardware and software why?
 
 So I can keep up with some pompous braggart who's using thousands of dollars of hardware to play Crysis while living in his parents basement?
 
 I think not.

[Iggy]

Obviously not doing any video encoding. And a fact is always simple if you just make it up.

Most of the time, no, I'm not and neither are the vast majority of users.
Occasionally I will re-encode something so that it will run better on my cell phone.

And even then, the delay time between high end hardware and lower end hardware hardly justifies spending several times more for hardware that will not remain top of the line for long.

I'm sorry if my facts don't jive with your perceptions, but I've been using computers since the mid-70s and most user don't use them for the crap you want to tout.
We use word processors, web browsers, spread sheets and other software that has broad utility and frankly was fairly well developed ten or MORE years ago.

You want to pretend you spend all day re-encoding video?
By all means, do so, but don't expect me to believe you.

And don't try to pass that BS of on my friends or customers, because they don't need what you're selling.

[Iggy]

What has a "single user OS" to do with threading Programs? It's up to the programmer to enable multithreading of an application. For example on Windows I used
HANDLE WINAPI CreateThread( lpThreadAttributes, dwStackSize, lpStartAddress, lpParameter, dwCreationFlags, lpThreadId)
more than a decade ago already. And windows balances the threads quite well.
If the developers don't slice their apps into threads, the OS cannot do much about that.

Actually, Window doesn't do that great when it comes to distributing loads, although you are right about programmers not creating code with enough modularity.
Back when I was still developing code, systems had far less resources, and I started on 8 bit systems, so I've always had a tendency to try to break down things to small modules that could be loaded and unloaded.
The availability of increased resources has made programmers somewhat lazy.
 
 Edit - btw "...more than a decade ago" ahem...kind of my point.
 Oh, and threading? Its was always necessary for multi-user systems to have good support for this. Windows and MacOS users have been conditioned to accept little animated icons that indicate they need to sit there twiddling their thumbs.

[Iggy]

Computing has become boring in the PC world. yes we have usb3 and fast processors but nothing really exciting is happening. This is why I keep an eye on Amiga as it always felt fun using Amiga and Amigaos. Windows just gets on my tits with it constant updates and spyware and adaware. Cant wait for Tabor A1222 so I can get back to using a person computer again not a computer that is restricting its user by the OS and aynoying BIOS security.

Thanks, that why I always had a problem with MacOS, I got tired of being stuffed into a box and forced to do things exactly the same way as everyone else.
It will be fun to have these new machines.
Personally I can't decide whether to wait for a four core X5000, or just purchase the model that was made available on Sunday.

I'm particularly glad to see someone else here use the term 'boring', because I get that.
That is what mainstream computing has become, boring.
Anymore I'm having trouble telling what I'm on, because all OS' tend to operate via the same conventions.

[Iggy]

USB 2 is built into the P5020 and there doesn't appear to be any USB3 Amiga OS4 driver despite being announced years ago.

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=5637&order=

 Currently, even USB 2.0 support under OS4 and MorphOS is far from perfect.
 USB3.0 support would require a dedicated developer and I don't see anyone stepping up to address this.
 
 But then, USB3 support isn't that important to me.
 I have it on one PC I have at home, and I don't use it.

[Iggy]

I also checked out the X5000 at Amiwest and it's a pretty decent system. Still priced a little too rich for my tastes based on it's specs but I take my hat off to A-EON for getting these machines produced and long may that continue.

I agree that it is the software that needs work and glad to hear that is underway. Will make it feel less like a hobby machine and more like a viable everyday solution (to me at least). Once the OS catches up a bit I will consider it a viable purchase.

I may get flamed for this but I would love to see either AmigaOS or MorphOS make it onto an ARM platform. With the millions of Raspberry Pi users, that kind of exposure would bring more attention to the Amiga scene. I mean even RiscOS is making a comeback thanks to the Pi. That could only be a good thing, right?

 No reason for you to be flamed for that, before the move to X64 was announced for MorphOS I frequently stated my preference for ARM.
 I just like the idea of a more open processor.
 Now that Power8 has been opened up to licensees, I'm all for sticking with Power platforms.
 
 But...when an X64 port is complete, I'll be there too.
 
 Although I am tired of Intel.
 AND, I don't think people realize that X64 cannot be covered in totality, so only selected targets will be supported.

[Iggy]

Impressed? Why?

For me, its the persistence needed to see the project through with such a small market and limited resources.
Especially when faced with naysayers like yourself.

Then there's the fact that its actually powerful enough to run real software, while being based on an ISA that is no longer commonly seen in desktops.

Go ahead and crap on the idea if you want, but impressed is EXACTLY the word I'd use.

[Iggy]

I hope you're being sarcastic because no real industry professional is going to be impressed by the current state of Amiga computing unless they're named Rip Van Winkle and just awoke from a 15 year long nap.

Oops...my bad...you ARE being sarcastic!  LOL!

Well, some one is anyway.

But you're not very good at it.

Actually, I have a friend the I've known since the '80s that owns a firm that makes medical monitoring equipment (first place I saw wave soldering).
He'd be pretty impressed if I told him the low volume the hardware was being produced in, and showed him the overall quality of the work.
But then, he is a professional.

Ah heck, we've had this argument before, and your still a dork.

[Iggy]

But what is missing? you still havent answered.


But then again, if you are tired of amiga NG talks on an amiga site, then why are you here?


I will hold you to that promis, but does that mean, we wont see you before those 12 years?

+3! :hammer:

Like hard work to create the limited runs of this stuff should be discounted because it can't compete with mass marketed commodity crap.

Honestly, I wish this guy would go back to using his Windows box, leave us alone, and STFU.

"I can upload my own multi-layer PCB designs and have them fabricated,  produced, and shipped to me in a matter of days.  There are quite a few  companies that do this routinely."

Gee Mr. Wizard, I've been doing that since the days when it was actually difficult to source a board manufacturer.
Glad to see you think its a accomplishment these days.

Now try to design a multi-layer board that has components that operate at high speed and have it function correctly when built.
Your dismissive attitude show you don't know the challenges involved there.

And as far as my intellect goes, at this point, with over 200 college credits and multiple degrees, I don't really care what YOUR judgement is, because you're a dork.
We don't need sophisticated verbiage for that assessment.
Your going to be negative without addressing the holes in your argument so...

... that is why you have windows and mac. If all you do is stick to mainstream, then what you end up with is nothing special.

And again I ask you, why are you even here? If all you want to do is complain, then take it some where else.

Good summary of this part of the discussion.

[Iggy]

thank you sir

instead naysayer you could say "normal people" because everyone out there will ask "why on earth have you spend so much money on the device". If you do not believe me try it out in real world. In the world there are billions of "naysayers".

BTW you have already ordered your X5000? For some reasons lots of people are praising hardware they do not use themselves

I discussed it with the owner of AmigaOnTheLake the first night the system was listed as available, but I may wait until the P5040 version is available.
Then again, I may not as I have the funds saved for it already (and I'm itching to have one).

Either way, yes, I'm buying one.

And from that  vendor.

If you advocate the development, but don't support it, well that won't help the manufacturer.

[Iggy]

And for that matter we're not as entrenched as we used to be.
I'm completely impressed with Hans' work, I occasionally exchange messages with Mark "Bigfoot" Olsen - one of the MorphOS developers who among other things works on video drivers, and I intend to buy an X5000 which supports BOTH OS4 and MorphOS.
Currently we are seeing a nice group of developments become available in multiple areas of our community.

Not bad for a 'dead', 'obsolete', 'hobbyist' system.