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Author Topic: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation  (Read 23627 times)

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Offline Iggy

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Quote from: amigakit;754430
Nicholas both myself and Trevor have contributed to this bounty personally.

That (and this) doesn't surprise me.
Trevor has admitted candidly in the past that he did not want to cater to Acube's lower end market.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 03:41:51 PM »
Quote from: Djole;754448
ACube designed and developed Minimig ?

Intentionally obfuscate much?

No, Acube just sells the Minimig.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 07:14:28 PM »
Be glad that there are developments, whether expensive or slow.
We represent a very small market and those that catering to it are doing so solely out of their own interest in it.
We still bath in the afterglow of a good experience.

Anybody got a cigarette?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 02:37:04 AM »
Quote from: persia;754555
The only answer to price is porting to standard hardware.  And unlike Apple they didn't make the code portable, so it would cost too much upfront.

Actually, a cheaper PPC processor would not hurt either.
The PA6T used in the X1000 is really pricey and the communications oriented Qorlq chips he intends to use in its successor are only a little less costly.
The AMCC chips Acube uses are much cheaper, but the performance is not that great.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 04:10:07 PM »
Quote from: utri007;754574
Price is matter of quantities. Hope with aeon support could help with that, producing low end PPC mobos in china would cost about 30€ per mobo.

But would 10 000 OS4 capable mobos sell?

I would like to see threads like this without x86 fantasies and whining


YES! Damn another fellow spirit that is tired of hearing calls for what would be a massive re-write of two operating systems.

Now, as to pricing, A-eon isn't interested in lower end models.
I've exchanged messages with Trevor on this.

Now, while we don't have volume, there are two PPC processors that can be had at about a third of the one Trevor is using.
They use the same core as well.
The down side to this is that their max operating speed is only 1.4 GHz (not the 2.2 GHz of the units Trevor is using).

This would make them quite a bit better than Acube's Applied Micro based boards, but not as good as A-eon's boards.

And while MorphOS ports just require funding, there is no guarantee that Hyperion would consider supporting such a board.


Final note - Yes Chinese production is cheap.
I have some contacts there.
But these boards would require several layers and very fine traces, so the costs go up.

Still, a board should be producible in 50 lot quantities for around $500 (maybe slightly more) cost.

That is certainly an improvement on the over $2500 a Nemo motherboard costs.

Again, we are not really making a fair comparison since these would be better compared to a Sam460.
And at retail, would likely have to be sold at SAM460 prices (unless someone producing them was doing so with a zero profit orientation).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:13:48 PM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 04:12:11 PM »
Quote from: Rob;754587
If you have something produced in large quantities you don't have to go to China for low prices.  Raspberrry Pi production took place about 15 miles away from AmigaKit.


Which Raspberry Pi?
I know of several Chinese versions.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 12:20:02 AM »
@utri007

I tend to agree with you, there is no inherent advantage to making a board in Italy versus making one in China.
Increasingly, I find myself relying on Chinese vendors.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 12:22:15 AM »
Quote from: Rob;754593
The ones manufactured by Sony UK in Pencoed.


So while they are the one that signed the agreement with the MCU vendor, you're dismissing all the knock offs?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 05:22:07 PM »
Actually, if it had been up to Paul Gentle at Varisys, the X1000 would have had a Qorlq processor (like its sucessor will).
The choice of processors seems heavily influenced by Hyperion and the previous annoucements of Ack Systems and Amiga Incorporated.
But we all benefit by the delay in moving to this line as it has matured and now has features that rival (and in some cases, surpass) the PA6T.

This will still not be a cheap board.
Even if we were to move to a completely zero profit, community driven model we would not bring the price of a similar design down significantly.

That is just how it is.
AND...that being said, I personally have always wanted an X1000, I will try to budget to afford its sucessor, and I wish Trevor and Paul all the luck in the world with this venture.

Expensive? Yes, but isn't it cool?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 01:31:10 AM »
Here is where having talked to Paul Gentle (@ Varisys) before their connection to A-eon was announced, and since then having exchanged a few messages with Trevor helps.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
AFAIK, the PA6T was never truly on the open market before the Apple takeover, at least not at the time of X1000, hence there was no real market functions (supply/demand) for setting the price, right? Apple bought and effectively closed PA-Semi in April 2008. The first "Nemo" motherboard prototype was built mid-2009. By August 2011 the first production run of revision 2.1 for "the AmigaOne X1000 beta test team" was made, more than three years after the CPU's fate was sealed.
   "If someone would have told them in advance how volatile the pricing would be, I am certain that A-Eon would have picked a different processor"

:confused:IIRC Varisys had a rather limited stack of CPU's from the 2007 shipment, the price they asked for them was IMHO very high...

Wow! Who have YOU been talking to? Nope, wrong!

PA Semi announced after the Apple buyout that it would only take orders from established customers. And that at a later date a final order date would be announced.
A-eon's 'purchase' was actually made by Varisys as they had worked with this processor before and were therefore...wait for it...established customers.

I won't delve into your little sermon on market economics, but the last PA6Ts were bought on the open market by Trevors firm because they had exhusted Varisys' supply. And they paid more for these than the original units (as no more were being manufacturer the price went up).
A cost, I might add, that Trevor bore on himself rather than pass it on to X1000 buyers.


Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
I am actually kind of certain that the CPU choice was more of a "hype" thing (the new "Amiga" should have the most talked-about PPC CPU of the time), as well as the "Xorro"/"Xena" was a "hype" thing (Amiga Classic -> "Zorro", AmigaOne -> "Xorro"). It's just a feeling I have. Maybe because I simply can't identify any other logical reasons whatsoever.

Did you even read my post?
The PA6T was Hyperion's preference.
And, at the time, it was the best choice.



Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
OK, if that's true I stand corrected about the engineering costs, but it's still all "wrong", I mean, you can't spend $200,000 on engineering alone for a motherboard that can only sell in a hundred or so units (there was always an upper limit on available CPU's, even if they would reach out beyond the OS4 community)! And *then* another $600-$,1000 for the CPU alone. And *then* everything else on top of that! The thought is absurd, and it's certainly nothing to applaud IMHO, someone should have hit the emergency breaks at the first price quote from Varisys, long before the development even started! And the complexity is hardly anything positive here either, why is a complex design with features that nobody asked for or even can figure out a purpose for better than a simpler but cheaper design like the 8610 concept? Especially when the latter will probably outperform or at least about break even with the former, and cost *a lot* less?

Um, just how much do you think it takes to keep a handful of engineers gainfully employed?
And, have you ever worked for a firm that built custom motherboards (because I did).
These figures are actually rather low.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
But had bPlan developed the motherboard "in-house" for "themselves" (read: their own business), they would probably have "priced" the development costs differently, right? Then the *monetary costs* wouldn't have been $100.000 USD any more, it would be more a matter of unpaid work hours and materials. Like Jens Schönfeld probably also does, or Fab when developing Odyssey. Had Fab put a market price tag on all the work hours of his time (mostly evenings and weekends probably, making them even more "expensive") he spent on Odyssey based on the hourly salary of a senior western SW developer, it would hardly be open sourced at just a mere €7,500 EUR. And MorphOS would cost a lot more than the current €50-€111 EUR for the same reason. I have built my own house "myself". Granted, I paid some carpenters, electricians, plummer's, etc to do some (quite a lot) of the work, but I did a very much of the work myself. I did never put a price on my own "development", I invested my own time into the project. Had I paid craftsmen to do every single thing, it would have been a lot more expensive, and even if I could have afforded it myself, the price I would have to ask at a sale in order to not make a loss when/if I sell it would probably have been *way out* of consumer's reach in my area, hence the house would have ended up unsalable. But if I'd sell my house at the current going prices in the area, I would probably make a nice little "profit", since I didn't price my own work/time, or priced it very low, compared to a "commercial carpenter". Whatever I get between what I paid for the fixed costs of having craftsmen doing some of the work, and the final end-user price the new house owner pays me, will be my "profit", the cost of labor isn't there, it was never priced. Or rather, it would have become priced by that "profit", *that's* what my labor turned out to be worth. I actually think most small/independent HW/SW entrepreneurs reason a bit the same way, and are happy with that...?

Stated simply, you appear to have no concept how a business works, how costs are accounted for and handled, or the factors related to pricing a product.
And I assure you that you don't need the 16 credits of Economics I had to understand it (some people understand economics intuitively).
All costs have to be paid for.
You have very limited production.
AND a high cost for materials.

No conspiracy.
If you don't like it, don't buy it.

There is always Acube (on a value per dollar basis just as expensive, but a lower end cost).

Jim
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 01:21:59 PM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;754711

I find your entire argumentation to be deeply inconsistent..

You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business...

I think you have simply unrealistic expectations...


Thanks Andre,
Sorry for the partial quotes.
Good retort.

And I don't need to make an overly worded response as your "You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business" is enough.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 03:59:51 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;754716
It is a pity that people leave the platform completely instead of changing to MorphOS or AROS.

I think everyone that is likely to leave fled long ago.

And the problem marketing new solutions to the diehards is that its never going to have hardware compatibility.
Even the directions the Amiga would have taken had it survived would not have preserved that.
So, a few of us have moved to MorphOS, and eventually that will morph again shedding its compatibility.
Amiga OS4 users can straggle on pretending they are still using an Amiga.
And AROS users can live comfortably acknowledging what many deny, that your best Amiga platform is a PC.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2013, 06:16:20 PM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;754722
...These are technical solutions for hobby use or, as I like to say, "Recreational Computing". They are the computer equivalent of quad bikes. Highly impractical for daily commuting in many areas, but some people greatly enjoy to ride one on weekends nevertheless.

Fabulous way of putting it.
"They are the computer equivalent of quad bikes"

Yes, it would be silly to compare an X1000 or a SAM to a mainstream computer and it will only torture the thinker to try.
This is supposed to be fun.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 12:11:26 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754740
You are absolutely right.

I don't have any objections to PPC per se, it's not like I'm against it for the sake of it. But if you can't produce a realistic product based on it (affordable to regular people without the need to sell your first born child and your left kidney, *and* performance/capabilities that at least is worthy the current decade), then there is no point, and other options should be considered. IMHO of course.

:)

And when were Amiga users ever realistic?

You ought to be satisfied that the MorphOS team has announced an eventual shift to a 64bit platform on either X64 or ARM.
But the PPC version is not going away, and we really do not need a repetition of this every time a new announcement is made.

Get used to it.
These are not our decisions.
And I, for one, would buy the new machine if funds allowed.

And as to performance, the G5 does not have enough for you?
To me it seems like over kill.

Edit - On realistic - How realistic was it when the MorphOS developers got together with this thought "Hey, let's re-create the entire operating system, but base it on PPC instructions with just in time interpretation to run 68K program. And we can add new features and support for things like OpenGL"

Sounds pretty crazy to me.
Like it?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 12:15:37 AM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2013, 03:11:10 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;754766
The high cost and slow development keeps it a hobby. Having cheap hardware and slow development, you've got potential.

Also if you want something cheaper, the FPGA arcade suits me better. How about OS 4.1 in 68k?


How about AROS68K on a 200 to 266 MHz V4 Coldfire?
That would be really cheap.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"