Get off the beach! Tsunami coming!

[Iggy]

Anyone who claims that they know what God *is*, is delusional.

Not even prophets have that knowledge.

Absolutely, we are all just men.
And yet it seems impossible for God not to exist.
Anything that can not be dis-proven is likely to have its basis in truth.
Nothing I have ever learned from any scientific discipline has ever challenged that fact.

[Iggy]

Science only strengthens my belief in the unseen (Which is all faith is really).

Absolutely, science keeps pointing to truths that reinforce my belief.

For instance, the old evolutionary model that insists on "missing links"? Doesn't seem to work that way. Organisms change in "jumps".
Fur or feathers, but NO intermediate stage.
Birds evolving four chambered hearts and warm blooded metabolisms independently of mammals.
Just studying biology you have to wonder at the obvious, recurrent similarities even in unrelated organisms.
This is not just parallel evolution, there's something inherent to it that defies explanation via random events.

[Iggy]

In Arabic this is known as the "Jihad an-nafs", The Struggle Against The Self.

It is the most important obligatory duty of a Muslim and was described by our prophet as Al-Jihad al-Akbar, "The greatest of struggles".

Most of us humans fail spectacularly at it on a minute by minute basis.

I have cut and pasted that to a text document for later reference because it addresses something that has troubled me about humanity for some time.
Thanks Nicholas.

[Iggy]

Indeed, perhaps you might like to read about the works of one of my favourite scientists/scholars from 800 years ago. Particularly his research on evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi

Wow, that floors me. Why do we give credit to Darwin? This contains a very concise description of how ecology and the organisms in it interact to create change/adaption.

"The organisms that can gain the new features faster are more variable. As a result,  they gain advantages over other creatures. [...] The bodies are changing  as a result of the internal and external interactions."

That is as true today, as when this scholar wrote this.

Again, thank you Nicholas.

[Iggy]

"Between plants and animals there is sponge and between animals and humans there is monkey." -
İbrahim Hakkı of Erzurum, 18th Century Ottoman Gnostic and Scientist

There again, I wasn't aware that Gnosticism survived into the 18th century.
Truly you must be our Amigoid Morpheus Nicholas.

You a verifying a belief I've long held that we keep re-discovering things that were known in the past.

[Iggy]

This is but one of many reasons I am no longer an atheist.

No need to thank me though, all praise belongs to the creator.

I think atheists are blind to evidence that faces them their every waking moment.
Or they just deny it.
I feel much more comfortable with my own morality, not because I believe in an afterlife, but because I now believe my life to be a very small part of an ongoing spectacle that will continue to unfold after me.
Who would want to live forever?

[Iggy]

Well... if the "creator" does exist then I want me money back, cos this thing he created has more flaws and bugs in it than every new release of Microsoft or Apple OS's...

(any one have an email or hotline I can call... )

I don't believe I'll get to meet God to question him about those "flaws".

But if the question is why was man born to suffer and die?

Then the answer HAS to be "Why not?"

Franko, you ought to read the end of Kurt Vonnegut's novel "Cat's Cradle".
I think I might be a Bokonist.

[Iggy]

There are gnostics of all manner still around today, just within Islam the Sunnis have the Sufis but the entire Shi'a faith is an esoteric belief system and our scholars (whom we practice personal  emulation of) spend decades studying and practicing mysticism as taught by our 12 Imams.

Ayatollah Khomeini was considered one of the greatest gnostics of modern history long before his move into frontline politics.

That doesn't  completely surprise me as the belief spans multiple faiths. Jewish Gnostics, Christian Gnostics, and Muslim Gnostics all with the suspicion that reality may be veiled.

[Iggy]

You got an answer, the trick is to analyse both the question and the response and learn from the experience as a whole.

Self accounting. Do it every day for best results.

I have tried that on more than one occasion and the results have been disturbing. One time I spent an entire weekend constantly getting images (on the TV, in films, in newspapers) of the two rivers that meet at the center of Pittsburgh (near where my father was born) when ever I turned on a television, watched a movie or read a paper.
Not a few times, several dozen. It was creepy and kind of funny at the same time..
By Sunday I was damned near in tears and I promised to contact my Dad's PA relatives only to turn on CNN and get coverage of kayaks in  the now cleaner waters flowing through Pittsburgh.

I'm sure there is a God, and his sense of humor is perverse.

[Iggy]

Uh, bad news that is current.
Workers are being pulled out of the Fukushima nuclear facility.
Remember earlier when I said things could get worse?

Well without workers, there will be no one to maintain the water levels in Reactors 1, 2, 3 and in the spent fuel pools above reactor 4.

Partial fuel degradation has occurred in all four locations (with maintenance).
Now, we have a live experiment in how bad a nuclear plant accident can get.

Once again, God bless and preserve the people of the nation of Japan.

[Iggy]

I think believers are blind to evidence that faces them their every waking moment.
Or they just deny it.


Or maybe sweeping generalizations is something we should all put behind us.

Perhaps, and then perhaps not. This is not a simple argument like asking if a glass is half full or half empty (its not a matter of perception).
Some generalizations are valid.
There are rules that govern all physical phenomenon, although physics is beginning to question whether these rules apply in all states.
I guess its a matter of whether or not you believe that there is someone formulating the rules.

"I think therefore I am", "Let there be light", the big bang?
All related in my cosmos.

So at the heart of my beliefs, a sweeping generalization that everything is connected. A vast ballet of mathematics, physics, and rules that coexist to produce a result.  
We are small creatures limited in our intellect facing a vast construct that we will one day disappear from.
As men, unique amongst all creatures we have learned to question this and to learn and grow past our place in the natural order.

But whether or not you agree with me, man is still only a a meat machine with a grand but still limited neural net processor.
He's not God, and no matter how great our achievements, he never will be.

So you can have your humanist views affirming agnostic or atheistic sentiments and I can have mine.
In the long run it doesn't matter because we will never get an answer to this question.
And one day, we will be gone.
I can live with that.

[Iggy]

Has anyone heard whether or not the workers (some or all) or a new crew have re-entered the facility?
This is the current rumor on the news and the web.

[Iggy]

@Runequestor

Lol, you beat me to it  
The whole blind faith thing, regardless of rationality thing baffles me. so does the internal justification for maintaining such beliefs. I have no qualms with people having faith, but comments like (to paraphrase), "it must be true 'cos it cant be disproven" to me is crazy.

I have a ghost in my house. Ive never seen it, heard it or felt it, but I cant disprove it therefore it's probably real. Come on, seriously ?
People can come up with twisted logic to support thier own beliefs for anything be it God, or twelve foot squirrels.

All this said and done though any chance people can take the religion talk elsewhere. I really dont want to offend others with my beliefs (that there is no God), and I'd hope others would have the same courteousy.

Interesting, but I don't believe in ghosts or 12 foot squirrels.
And I don't question your right to believe whatever you want.
I  fact I don't believe that either position holds any particular consequence.

And if you can, disprove the existence of God.
I can't prove God existence to you.

But everything I see in this Universe tells me life is an inherent part of it.

So whether or not you believe an all encompassing intellect is involved in the basic structure the cosmos is not important to me.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that order derives from chaos and that man is the apex of intelligence.

[Iggy]

The workers that you speak of were part of the original plants work force not anything to do with the brave souls who are currently risking life and limb trying to make the reactors safe...

Honestly, I do think your getting caught up in all the mainstream media crap about this disaster by claiming things like "well without workers", the vast majority of the plants normal work force have been long since taken out and it's the clean up crews and specialists who are now trying to maintain things and keep it under control...

You really should take a step back and consider ALL the facts available before you continue speculating on just how bad things might get, as you seem to be more worried about it than most rational people, take it easy man, if it happens, it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't... no point in worrying yourself over something that will most likely not affect you directly...

It hasn't been speculation Franko.
Days ago I told you what could happen, why it could happen, and what events would precede it.
Unfortunately, it looks like a worst case scenario is unfolding.

The "experts" should stop minimizing this and state the painfully obvious. This situation is unlike anything that has preceded it and that its going to get worse as this real world experiment continues.

Even if they had managed this under control, it would be months or years before this was over.

To repeat what I said days ago, we've never seen a total meltdown, yet...

[Iggy]

Well we all know the answer to "Life, The Universe and Everything" is 42...

So we just need to figure out how we get the 68K to come up with the answer 42 and bobs your uncle, we will have proof that the universe and everything in it runs on 68K...

(Just hope to gawd it doesn't turn out to be run on an old ZX Spectrum running on a Z80 or were really stuffed... :eek:)

Ugh, whale blubber.

Personally I always like the sentiment "So long and thanks for the fish".

[Iggy]

What horrible thought! Life is a simulation and God has a dodgy computer.

Although I am comfortable with the idea that Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ.