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Author Topic: Possibly looking for 1260 card  (Read 9530 times)

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« on: February 12, 2011, 08:10:34 PM »
Good luck. There's one on Ebay right now and with over 4 hours left to go its already over $300.
I've stashed the components needed to upgrade a 1240 to a 1260, but its a grueling task and finding a decent 1240 isn't much easier.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 08:48:46 PM »
Quote from: runequester;615113
Yeah, I know its a long shot. I am still a little bit on the fence about what to do in the long run. I may settle myself with my 030 for a while, and just work on other bits and pieces instead.


I have doubts about the claimed huge lead the '60 would have anyway.
There are limits to how far you can push an Amiga, and when you're funneling all that power down through a much slower chipset the losses get pretty significant.

Besides, you invest a crap load of money in this and someone with a Cyberstorm '060 running at 66Mhz in a 4000 is going to tell you his computer is faster than yours (or someone with an overclocked PPC board etc.).

Why not just be satisfied that you already have one seriously fast Amiga and leave it at that?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 11:53:35 PM »
>There are no doubts. A 500% speedup is impressive.

5 times? No way. I doubt it. Prove that one with a benchmark. I'll even take a relatively invalid one like a mips figure.

And the chipset? All access to sound, graphics, hard drives? Still just as slow with either processor.

Not that any of this really matters because even a 66Mhz '060 in a 4000 is still a really slow processor.

66Mhz? The PCI bus in my G4 Mac runs at that.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2011, 01:12:22 AM »
Quote from: runequester;615144
well, comparisons to modern computers is a bit pointless :)


As far as my uses, Im pretty comfortable with how Final Writer and Dpaint V runs currently so not too much fuss



Comparisons between anything are pointless as long as the system you're using is up to the task of running the software you intend to use on it.

What would this mythical increase is speed give you that you don't already have?

And if its really bugging you, sit and wait for the Natami.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 01:15:30 AM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2011, 01:22:48 AM »
I have no doubt an '060 can outperform an '030, but 500%? Pure hyperbole.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 01:36:31 AM »
Quote from: Franko;615157
Drat... just missed out on this Blizzard060 from the states was at $340 (£212) for most of the day, and I forgot about it until a few minutes ago and ended up too slow in bidding... :(

went for $407.47 (£254.65) almost a hundred quid cheaper that you can get one here in the UK, wonder why they go so cheaply in the USA... :(

Blizzard060 64MB RAM (USA) sold for $407.47 (£254.65)


@Iggy

Yeah 500% increase is wee bit of an exaggeration... :)


Nah, not if you're Irish or Scottish, but Americans don't know how to keep a straight face when they're burying you with BS.

And you're right, I stopped looking at that part over four hours ago when it topped $300. Hmm, I really thought that would go for more
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 02:54:32 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;615165
A 66mhz '060 is roughly 85-90mips. A 50mhz '030 is about 12. Are these the sorts of figures you was after ? An '060 really is something like the 500% faster figure that was quoted, even more in some cases. Sure AGA can become a bottleneck with heavily graphics intensive stuff, but that's a pretty small portion of the overall picture. How is this hard to believe? There's something like a decade between the cpus. Yes, by modern standards its a slow cpu, but it's the best experience avialable to a classic amiga, so good luck to anyone who trying to get ahold of one.
Even your 4140mips g4 is about 30x slower than current high end cpus (core i7-980x is rated as over 150,000 mips), but as you seem to understand when it's your hobby, raw speed isnt everything. It's about getting the best possible experience for your hobby.


That's what I was kind of information I was hoping someone would quote me. This is why the difference between real performance gains and figures based solely on CPU performance data are so varied.

OK, now when say you run a video game, what's the increase in FPS when moving from an '030 to an '60? It's certainly not on the order of 5 times, is it?

And my G4 based Powermac, its not really 42 times more powerful than your '60 is it? Not really anymore than an i7 is 30 times more powerful than my G4.

We're completely outside any reasonable comparisons at this point.

The best way to look at this is the same as its always been, via application benchmarks.

So we all are clear on this, a 5  times higher CPU mips rating does not make a system five time "faster". Its a measurement of the CPU alone. And the Amiga relies on a lot of custom chips that gain little from a faster CPU.

The irritating thing is, Chaos knows this. That's why so much of the Natami's design features updated components. Even if you could recreate the original Amiga chipset, would you want to?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 03:14:16 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;615174
Time to add 2 IEEE Floating Point Numbers:
68060 = 3 cycles
68030 = around 150 cycles

150/3 = 50x speed = 5000% (That is 5 thousand % not 5 hundred %)

68030 fail
68060 win!


Pointless unless you know of a program that executes instruction that solely affect the CPU and as in the example above do nothing but floating number calculations.

Now we're at 3000x and counting. I'm not even getting baited into further discussions along these lines.

What's it do for the average Amiga software package?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 03:26:10 AM »
Quote from: Damion;615176
Yeah, no sh!t the '060 is a faster processor. :P

I was responding specifically to Iggy's comment about chipset access, which is generally better with the '030 cards.

Blizzard 1260/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 1328.7 ns normal 1.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 1329.4 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 1332.9 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 1119.2 ns normal 1.8 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 1118.9 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 1121.8 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s

Blizzard 1230/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 903.4 ns norm 2.2 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 903.7 ns norm 4.4 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 636.4 ns norm 6.3 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 575.6 ns norm 3.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 574.8 ns norm 6.9 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 575.3 ns norm 7.0 * 10^6 byte/s


@Franko



Never heard of the demoscene?


Actually, we're back to that word again - faster.
Those two processors are operating at the same speed.
The '60 is undoubtedly the more powerful of the two, but how much faster the system is is more subjective.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 03:37:27 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;615183
Sure, the comparisons are silly, but that was the point. It's all old outdated, redundant technology in the current scheme of things, to point out that a pci bus can run at the same frequency as an '060 was ridiculous, so I responded as such. What does matter is if a user is happy with thier old computer gear, be it a g4 mac or an '060 based amiga.

As for the speed comparisons between an '030 and an '060, the comparisons are real. The cpus themselves are that much slower/faster than each other, but throw a custom chipset based amiga into the equation and things arent often that cut and dry. AGA has a bandwidth of about 14MBps, no cpu in the world is going to change that, and beyond a low end '040 the improvements in terms of gfx throughput arent going to scale the same as the cpu. This however doesnt mean its not a much more pleasant experience with the '060. Things like image decoding on an '030 you have to wait for, and you can see the image draw as it decodes. This sort of thing is massively better on an '060. Any sort of compressions (archives, mp3s, video files,etc.) is going to be a massively superior experience on an '060. Harddrive access, fast ram read/write (which also has a side effect of speeding up thing like fblit, etc.). When dealing with such limited resources an '060 really makes a lot of difference, even if its not going to increase framerates that scale with the cpu (unless using rtg). Gaming is still a better experience though, even with aga maxed out due to better response times from input. Id hazzard a guess at things being maybe 2x as fast in terms of gfx updates vs. '030 in games that arent cpu bound.


That, 2X, I could see. And I'll leave it to you guys if you want to use mp3s or video files on an Amiga.
While I take mp3s for granted, I can barely push 720p video through what I'm running (and don't think I'll see 1080p until G5 support is introduced - no video card assisted coding/decoding).
But I can see your point. Even if you're only seeing 25 to 50% improvements in some packages, at the speed legacy hardware operates at you're going to notice a drastic improvement.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 03:52:05 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;615187
It makes the average Amiga software package run a lot faster.


That would have been a much easier to agree to statement.
And who doesn't want a more powerful processor?

I've always wondered about the economics of that purchase though.

I've never bought top of the line CPUs (always one or two step down) because in the X86 world that's about a third of the cost.

I still wonder how stupid the people that bought the $1000 Pentium EE processors feel right now.

Of course, while we've all been hashing this out, as Franko has pointed out a 1260 went for little more than the cost of a 56Mhz '030.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 04:25:21 PM »
Quote from: Buzzfuzz;615218
Lol :roflmao:
 
Actually I was that stupid yeah, I have a 975 EE, but as Franko said like a Blizzard 1260 it runs rings around most processors.
My 975 EE is running @ 4GHz on air cooling, no need for insane cooling upgrades, just a Prolimatech Megahalems Rev B with a push pull fan config at low rpm's.
 
But like any 060 card I also have a Cyberstorm 060/PPC 50/200 with 128MB, but this thing leaves a dust cloud when compared to it's SCSI performance on a Blizzard 1260 with SCSI kit.
 
Nothing beats a good powerful setup, but the question is, are you really going to use it ?
In the Amiga world, if you only do games, it's useless, your better off with a good 030.
Lesson learned already.
 
So then what ? it's not like your going to use it for video work, your pc is about 1000 times faster in that area.
Music ? well no need for a 060 there.
Demos ? yeah could be, but you have to be pretty good at it.
 
It's that I got the Cyberstorm and Blizzard 2060 / 1260 for reasonable prices, but at what they sell now, NO FREAKING WAY!


...but at what they sell now, NO FREAKING WAY!

And you bought a Pentium 975EE?

It's a phenomenal example of market pricing, isn't it?

Although not as extreme, similar conditions played a role in my having to pay over $150 for a 1.8Ghz upgrade for my Powermac.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 07:05:46 PM »
Quote from: Buzzfuzz;615279
A 975EE at 900 dollars or so is a bit more usefull than a 1200 dollar Cyberstorm PPC, wouldn't you agree ? :)
Same as 400 dollar Blizzard 1260 vs 950 Core I7.
In both cases I would chose the I7 anyday.


If it was a matter of having 1200 dollars burning a hole in my pocket, I'd buy the 1260 and an X86 processor (and probably have money left over).

The last X86 processor I bought was a Phenom X3 740 at $69.95 (not exactly a high end processor).
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"