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Author Topic: Philosophical Question - Amiguing  (Read 39432 times)

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Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« on: July 16, 2013, 06:21:35 PM »
Nothing to do with nostalgia for me.... AmigaOS is the only OS I know that I enjoy coding for, using and generally playing around with. Simple as that.
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Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 06:43:29 PM »
Why? If you'd ever tried coding for Windows or Linux you'd understand :)
AmigaOS is fast, responsive, configurable and does what I tell it to in a nice understandable way that no other OS does for me.

Nostalgia doesn't enter into it.

(now my ZX81 on the other hand :) )
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
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Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 09:07:23 PM »
Yes, I've tried XP and Windows 8 - my machine at work runs 8 x64 on an SSD and it's very quick, actually. For the most part, it's the only machine I've used that rivals AmigaOS for responsiveness. And yes, I'd expect a 2013 PC running a 400MB/s SSD to outperform a 1992 Amiga 1200. :) I compare with my own Sam440ep and A1XE (I can't afford an X1000) particularly, although my CSPPC A4000 is still very impressive.

But none of that can change the coding. I've always hated Windows coding ever since the word "WM_PAINT" was first ingrained into my memory. The whole way Windows works is hideous, and whereas AmigaOS now contains Reaction (with which a capable GUI can be built very quickly), Microsoft prefer travesties like MFC and now the Metro interface (which to be fair I've not tried yet).

As usual, it's horses for courses, and we'll probably have to agree to disagree on the old "my OS is better than your OS". But one thing is certain, and I can answer your original question (and I'll make this as clearly as possible):

My choice of OS is nothing to do with nostalgia. It is just a preference.

Now the less succinct version :) :
I think there is a tendency sometimes for people to label things that are "old" as "nostalgic", when it's not correct. For instance:
I have a large record collection, and few CDs.  Is it nostalgia? No, I just prefer the warm analogue sound to the clinical, digital sound of a CD.
I listen to old music, mostly 60s and 70s. Nostalgia? No, I wasn't even born then. I just think it's more rewarding (give me some nice Rock, Prog, Jazz or something over modern music any day)
My favourite film is "The Producers" from 1967. Nostalgia? No, it's just an awesome film.
My wife spent most of the evening playing Sonic on the Megadrive. Nostalgia? No, it's just a very good game.
My favourite platform of choice is the Amiga. Nostalgia? No, it's just an awesome platform to use and develop on.
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
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Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 10:47:45 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;740976
I wonder what the incidence rate of individuals who fall within the Autistic Spectrum are within the Amiga community (or even retro computing communities in general) is compared with society as a whole?

I'd be willing to wager it is pretty high.


I reckon it's exactly the same proportion as in the world community as a whole.... I don't see why a difference in taste should denote autism?
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Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
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Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 10:50:46 PM »
Quote from: itix;740984
C# with Visual Studio 2010 and .NET framework 2.0 can change that. But it can't change that when you start developing new piece of software for mainstream system someone else has done it already. ;)


Exactly that! So I'm not alone after all. :) Do something for Windows or Linux and you're more than likely re-re-re-re-inventing the wheel. Yet there are so many ways with AmigaOS we can still contribute - so many programs not yet written or ported. In other words, AmigaOS has so much more potential when it comes to coding - you can do something and it's useful, and people appreciate it. That is a Good Thing(tm).
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 12:00:06 AM »
I think there's a massive difference between the autistic/OCD elements, and those of people who enjoy tinkering.

I can't claim to know much about autism or OCD, not suffering from either (despite, it seems, being an Amiga user), but my understanding is that someone with OCD has to get things the way they feel it should be. I think people who don't have OCD can still enjoy tinkering with things, and can still want things to be "just right" - I don't think that counts as a disorder, though; I think it counts as "being human". We all have it to some extent or another.

Most hobbies that I know of involve being very particular about things - stamp collectors have to have a nice neat postmark or full gum. Coin collectors have to have the correct patina. Record collectors have to have the right pressing. Car collectors have to get rid of every bit of rust or dirt. That sort of thing. And most people have a hobby of some kind.

Given that most people I know have something somewhere they're particular about, I think it's just part of being a homo sapiens.
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2013, 12:30:19 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;741056

A Raspberry PI is faster than an Amiga. Anyone programming an Amiga today is doing it purely for nostalgia or fear of moving on.


I think it comes to something when even on an "Amiga" forum, you have difficulty making people realise that the Amiga is just as much fun to program for now as it always was. This kind of attitude used to be limited to PC/Linux/Mac forums.

If other people do it for nostalgia or fear or whatever then great, and if people want to believe that the rest of us only do it for nostalgia, then that's their choice, but they're completely ignoring the real reasons (e.g. enjoyment, coding for a developing (still) environment, coding for a small(ish) community, coding to support development of AmigaOS - there are so many reasons which have nothing whatsoever to do with nostalgia).

Why does it have to be nostalgia? Why can't it just be the simple explanation - that some of us just prefer the Amiga to the other OSes?
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2013, 01:03:39 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;741064
People only voluntarily do things for one of 2 reasons:
A: They are paid to do the thing.
B: They do the thing for fun.

Which one of those do you think applies to Amiga programming?


A & B for me :P

Best thing is, unlike with most coding for other platforms, I get to do both A and B at the same time with the same project!
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 01:27:56 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;741067

I don't believe anyone who suggests that AmigaDOS is superior to every other operating system is seriously programming on any other platform. But I don't believe there is anybody making a living from programming the Amiga.
 


I don't think many people are saying it's superior just that it's more enjoyable.. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages.
I agree there are precious few people making a living from programming the Amiga, but it's still perfectly possible to supplement an income with Amiga work if you look in the right places.
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 04:04:33 PM »
Off topic:
A good record player and a good record will have very little noise or resonance, and the detail is astounding - especially when compared to a CD. Admittedly you need a really good set-up, but it's quite possible (my Linn set-up being an example!)

On-topic:
Honestly, it's not psychological. It's not philosophical. It's not pathological, and it's not pataphysical.
It's just that some of us enjoy using Amigas more than we enjoy other computers. That's it. Really! There's no hidden meaning, no secret desires of surreptitious ambitions, we just simply prefer using an Amiga!
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 09:32:30 AM »
Quote from: agami;741152

If you, myself, or any other Amiga user who originally used an Amiga in the late '80s and early '90s were placed in an FMRI and then you, me, or any of them engaged in their favourite use of the Amiga i.e. playing a game, modifying the GUI/MUI, coding; the areas of the brain that would light up would be the same as those relating to nostalgia.


Sure, when I'm playing a game of Cannon Fodder, the nostalgic response would trigger.

BUT (and it's a big but)....

So would the part of the brain governing enjoyment. The fact that there are nostalgic impulses in the brain does not over-ride or replace the same impulse that were triggered in the first place. It's not just nostalgic, it's an enjoyment. If you take away the nostalgic influence, and put us in the FMRI right now, it would still trigger the enjoyment parts of the brain.

For instance: if I play Cannon Fodder now, I get a nostalgic "glow", and also enjoyment from playing it. But if I fire up a game I've never played before, such as "Defender of the Crown", I just get the enjoyment. There is no nostalgia as I've not done it before.
"Ah!", you're probably thinking, "but the association is still there as you're using the same computer".
But what if I play it on a different computer? Is it still nostalgia? I'm not using the same computer, nor the same game. It's a new experience to me. Does that stop me enjoying it? Of course not. Maybe you'd say that I associate the different computer with my old one, but we're getting a bit tenuous here.
Maybe you'd say that the technology reminds me of the time, and it's the time I'm nostalgic for.... but in that case what about youngsters? My wife was playing Sonic recently, and she never had Sonic and was born in 1990. Was it nostalgia? Of course not, she grew up for the most part in the 2000's. When she enjoys an Amiga game, is she nostalgic? No, she just enjoys it. Heck, she loves playing Wizard War on my Dragon 32 and she's about 8 years younger that game!

And now we come to another point. When I was growing up, I wasn't coding PCI drivers for Amigas in ANSI C. I was using Sinclair BASIC to write little games and stuff. The two are completely different, I never did these things back then, so how can I get nostalgic? My AmigaOS 4 machine is completely different to what I was using back then, the only similarity is the OS, but even that is far advanced from what I had in the 90's.

Sure, nostalgia plays a part in many uses of the Amiga, but NOT ALL of them.
Call me defensive, delusional, whatever, but sweeping generalisations about everybody in any one group is not good psychology! Just because one person in a set associates using an Amiga with his childhood does not mean that the same holds true for the rest of us. We are all different. As a psychologist you will know how complicated the brain can be. There are any number of sensory experiences associated with our actions, nostalgia is but one of a million.

Saying that everybody has the same reason for using a particular computer is completely indefensible. You might as well blame it on our parents.
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 01:44:50 PM »
Thus proving that Amiga people - no matter what flavour of AmigaOS they use, 3.x, 4.x, MorphOS or AROS - all have two things in common:
taste and discernment. :)
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2013, 02:46:50 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741208
Do your vinyl justice and play them on a Technics SL-1200/1210 with Ortorfon carts.

No point having a great amp and speakers if you're not feeding them the best input. :)


Exactly why my Linn Axis has a Goldring 1042 and an Akito Mk 1 (with new bearings) on it. :) Amp is an Onkyo TX-SR705, speakers are KEF Q35s, pre-amp a NAD PP-3.

Are we off-topic yet? :P
Put it this way, it ain't nostalgia that makes it sound so good. :) (there we are, back on topic again!)
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2013, 09:06:34 AM »
@Agami

Your psychological assessment is fundamentally flawed, though, because you've started with an invalid supposition.

Quote from: agami;741304

We
hbarcellos throws his lot in with the Amiga people. He is not asking 'Why do I?' or 'Why do you?', his asking why this tribe of ours, why we as a group?


This is completely invalid.
Amiga users are not a single user, group or "tribe" as you put it. We are not all as one. We each have our own reasons and purposes.
As an example, to use your analogy of a tribe:
Imagine a tribe in the Amazon rain forest.
Imagine there are two particular people in the tribe that we shall focus on. Let's - for the sake of argument - call them Fred and Barney.
Fred is the hunter gatherer of the tribe. His job is to go out and kill animals for food for the tribe. He does this well. He is a great hunter.
Barney is the tribe's elder. He does not need to do anything. Yet they both go out hunting.

Obviously we can see that both Fred and Barney both have different motives for doing the same thing. Fred has to - Barney does it too, but why does Barney do it?

What you're saying is that Amiga people are all in a group, all have the same objective, and therefore all have the same psychological reasoning behind them, but this is a fallacy, and it's one around which you have built your whole hypothesis.

In our fictional Amazonian tribe, does Barney do it out of necessity? No. Does he do it out of love of hunting? Or nostalgia because he used to be the hunter-gatherer of the tribe? Or does he like hanging out with his mate Barney?

We don't know - we don't have enough information upon which to base our hypothesis. And in the same way, we do not know why each and every Amiga user uses an Amiga. To lump them all together is as absurd as saying every man dislikes shopping or every woman is partial to pink magnolias, or saying that Barney and Fred go hunting out of a common need, which is provably incorrect (as it's Fred's job, not Barney's).

You can't do that.

Quote

Keep Trying
Something done over and over. It's not a single attempt, it's not why try now, but rather the enduring tries and retries.

The definition of stupidity is to repeat the same action and expecting a different result. Over the decades we have made differing attempts but expected the same result i.e. the return of the Amiga as a viable platform. What do we call that?


Again, a major fallacy in your presupposition.
You suppose that all Amiga users are doing the same thing to achieve the same result. This is not the case.
We are not - as Amiga users - all doing the same action. We're not repeating our action. We're doing different things, all the time. Was porting Qt to AmigaOS4 the same as writing Hello World in 1989? Of course not!
We are not repeating the same action expecting a different result, because the result is as a consequence of the initiating action. If I write an application for AmigaOS4, I don't expect the Second Coming of the Almighty Jay Miner. I expect a working application. If I write a Hello Word program, I expect my computer to say "Hello World" at me.

Secondly, the result.
Again: supposition.
You have stated that the end result of ALL AMIGA people is the return of the Amiga. This is provably and demonstrably false.
We do not all carry out our actions to make the Amiga mainstream again. Many of us are happy to have it as a niche platform. What we are striving for is continuity. We are trying to make the Amiga survive, not overtake the competition as you incorrectly suggest.
If we want to port Qt to the Amiga, our aim is to facilitate porting of future programs of Qt, NOT to destroy Microsoft and Apple.
That is our action. That is our result. We have succeeded. We do not, as you invalidly suggest, continue repeating the same action over and over expecting the same result.

Quote

Cultivate
The essence of the question. It singles out those who are toiling in the proverbial fields. It does not include people who have been exposed to the Amiga recently, it's not about how my sisters played SuperFrog and liked it. They're not going around trying to get their friends to play the game. Memetically these individuals are infertile grounds. Just like none of us are cultivating the use of an abacus. We may find it interesting, and we may even discover some of its advantages for certain types of calculations, but in the end we go back to a digital calculator or a software facsimile thereof.

So the phrasing of the question implies a time period beyond the recent, an ongoing journey, a group behaviour, and the effort of cultivating specific ideas and ideals. Everywhere this kind of group behaviour is encountered the main driving emotion is always nostalgia. Physical books vs. digital books. Handwritten letters vs. email.

This is not a bad thing, only those of us lucky enough to be alive in the time of the Amiga can be nostalgic about it. And one day in the future when we've all 'kicked the bucket', people will be able to see an Amiga in a computer or technology museum, and perhaps read books about the passion some groups of people had towards some of the early computing platforms and no doubt see it as completely irrational.


So people who hand-write letters are being nostalgic? And it's not because they just might not own a computer?
People who read a book on paper instead of a computer are being nostalgic? Are you sure it's not just because many people don't like looking at screens for a long time? Or because taking your laptop into the bath isn't a good thing?

By the same argument you could say that in hindsight anybody enthusing about an obsolete technology is being irrational and "nostalgic", yet if you put yourself in that situation and look at the FACTS, you will that it can be anything but. There are provable demonstrable reasons as to why we as humans do what we do, nostalgia is but one possibility. Lumping all people in to fit one example which you have chosen, and thereby extrapolating for the whole group, is the worst psychology imaginable. It's manipulating the evidence to fit the theory, rather than fitting the theory to the evidence in front of you. By the same token you could find a field of sheep with one black sheep in it, take a sample of one sheep as to which sheep are black, pick the black sheep and extrapolate it to say that the whole field of sheep are black.

We - as Amiga users - are not one person.
We do not share a common goal.
Nobody can tell me what my goal is. My goal is determined by me and me alone.
My reasons for my continuing towards my goal are my own, and mine alone.

It may not fit in with psychological mass grouping as you're advocating, but like it or not:

I am an individual. Remember that when you fit me into your mass group of 1000 people because it allows you to put a label on me.



(Incidentally: in case you're thinking I'm being defensive, you're right. I hate it when people generalise me with other people, more so when they've never met me. It's a pet hate of mine :) )
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!