Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale

[Seehund]

Mai Logic press release

Mai will be selling their Teron CX boards in a "consumer version" (as opposed to the "evaluation version" sold until now, distributed as "developer boards" by Eyetech). The initial target price will be about USD 500.

Since the public press release is out by now I guess I'm free to say that Bill Mueller, the Mai engineer who designed the Teron CX / "AmigaOne", has told me that this "consumer board" will be equipped with the newer VIA 686B southbridge (ATA100 interface et c.) and that the shared AGP/PCI slots on PCI bus 1 will be simultaneously usable. This is the same board Eyetech will be redistributing under the "AmigaOne" trademark, apart from that Eyetech's boards will ship with a modified firmware. The Teron CX will be on sale in "a couple of months", and Mueller did not yet know what firmware their boards will be shipped with.

Since no official response has yet been given to the AmigaOS distribution petition, we can only assume that AmigaOS users will still only be allowed to buy our hardware  in a "special" version from one dealer...

[Seehund]

Elektro spake thusly:

Es ist so schön
mal geistes krank zu sein...

Heh. Sounds familiar. Either it's Jung or a Pankow song.

Pankow summed up the Amiga situation nicely:

This is time for orphans, time to wipe out all the morals
This is time for masochists, for devils, and for clowns
All you broken hearts
All you broken fools
Follow me in suicide oh
Follow me into ####

"Total quality experience!"

[Seehund]

Follow me into ####

What, are people too sensitive to read about bodily functions described in vulgar terms?

"Faeces" then.

[Seehund]

jd997uk:

You failed miserably to remember this PREVIOUS press release from MAI. If you read it carefully, you will see that Eyetech have been appointed as a DISTRIBUTOR for the Teron boards.

I remember the "AmigaOne" and that press release very well. Eyetech will be selling Mai's hardware. And? What are you talking about? What's that got to do with this?
AmigaOS users will still only be allowed to buy hardware via Eyetech (or another purely hypothetical "licensee"). Nothing has changed there.

[Seehund]

Ah, I think I see what you're hinting at, jd997uk:

... only be allowed to buy our hardware in a "special" version from one dealer...

Yeah, "distributor" might have been more literally accurate than "dealer", but it makes no practical difference, since those dealers will only be allowed to sell us hardware from this distributor, after whatever silly modifications have been applied. Just one more link in the chain that needs to be payed...

[Seehund]

anarchic_teapot wrote:

Remember that this is a limited-interest mobo for the moment, and IMO it is highly unlikely that any other dealer for Europe actually exists. So you'll still be buying from Eyetech.

Mai themselves will sell it (just like they did with the "evaluation" Teron CX) and most likely Terrasoft and Total Impact will be among the initial distributors, as well as Inguard since they already sell the "evaluation" version. With this nifty Internet invention I don't care any more about which continent my vendor is located on, than I care about which trademark is used for the stuff I buy from him. (The firstly mentioned concern could however be a valid concern for me, in contrast to the trademark nonsense.)

Remember that the firmware, which basically enables the mobo to boot, and the Amiga ROM are not the same thing, neither conceptually nor physically. I suspect that when they talk about not necessarily using the same firmware as the A1, they mean that there may be a few differences in the code, eg default OS may be Linux rather than AOS.

If the "anti piracy" (hardware-licensee confirmation) code will be in a separate ROM or in the board's firmware is irrelevant. It has the same technically irrelevant purpose either way.
When Bill Mueller says he doesn't know what firmware will be shipped with the boards, he means that he doesn't know what firmware will be shipped with the boards. "Default OS" has nothing to do with it, Mai is a hardware vendor. There is no "default OS". Since I can't think of any firmware suitable for this kind of hardware that can't boot Linux (other than a custom-written solution, which there is none from Mai), and Linux is the predominant "POP OS", it'd be kinda silly to flash the boards with a Linux-incompatible firmware. Third party distributors like Eyetech, Terrasoft et c. as well as end-users can of course reflash them with whatever they like.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure it's the debugging etc work on the A1 which now enables MAI to market their board in this way.

WTF? Eyetech has nothing to do with any hardware development of neither this board nor the "evaluation" version (the "A1 developer version"). What Mai's customers, like Eyetech, do with software like the firmware has nothing to do with hardware design or Mai's marketing of their own products. Bill Mueller is the sole developer of the Teron CX / A1, and he is one of the two developers at Mai who do all motherboard designs and signal integrity development. He does not "know what or who we do our contracts with".

This is good news, since it has spread the costs of A1 development and should also reduce the final cost of the boards to users since more are expected to be sold.

Yes, it's good news. Even better news, following your reasoning above and common sense, would be if AmigaOS users could directly benefit from larger sales, more competition and unrestricted vendor options. Extending this reasoning further, AmigaOS would benefit from being sold to a wider hardware base, instead of not running on it at all or as pirated copies.

I do wish you'd think things through before kneejerking out this sort of emotive nonsense.

Please point out the emotive nonsense in the above news item, so we can let Mai know the truth about their products...

[Seehund]

DaveP wrote:

Never happen, like a bad lobbyist he uses any vague link to promote his anti-Amiga Inc stance on PPC hardware. Fails to realise that the audience is bored.

"He"? Hey! Dave! I'm right here!

Now, what in an announcement about the very same PPC hardware that many people here are waiting for is "boring the audience"? Should amiga.org remove the PPC and the Hardware categories, and replace them with an "Eyetech's AmigaOne" category?

With this item and the crowing about MorphOS running on the AmigaONE ( no it isnt ) the childish tactics are back in season. There is *no way* that MorphOS COULD be running on an A1G3SE at the moment.

I have sweet FA to do with what that Bill Buck character says. Don't lump me in with corporate propaganda from either imaginary "side", please. But why would you say something like that about that OS and that hardware? Is there any reason to why this OS would *not* run on hardware like the TeronCX/A1?
I haven't even tried the 0.4 version of MorphOS, but since it obviously is already running on a piece of hardware very similar to the TeronCX, why would this be impossible?

So what are they (Thendic) trying to say, oh yes that old one that is supposed to put everyone off - that Eyetech are using and adapting an already designed, produced and tested board from Mai called the TeronCX rather than being a custom design with a custom slot for expansions that no third party supports or produces modules for. Yeah, real benefits. Oh no watch me start crying because it isnt made by a German/French cartel that claims to have some intangible sense of Amiganess that everyone else lacks.

I think you're being childish. First, it's Mai and me that's saying that the "production" Teron CX hardware design = A1G3SE, and yes this is good. I'd hate to see some custom made stuff being made our only allowed option. And I haven't seen Thendic or any other company commenting on that, what I have seen is Eyetech claiming that the A1 would be some "special" hardware that they had some part in designing, or even that it's "a new Amiga", which I still don't understand why they would say since it's always been obviously untrue and it'd make their hardware commercially unattractive in any market segment other than the few hardcore sub-petric dwellers who'd buy anything as long as it's got a boingball.
Second, why should you or me give a crap about what hardware people want to buy? It's just hardware. There are no more Amigas, which we can have old-sk00l flamewars over with those evil Atari/whatever users. There's just hardware, a commodity. If someone want's a TeronCX/A1, fine, if someone else wants a Pegasos, fine, if someone else wants an XYZ, fine again. The main thing is that we're all buying and using AmigaOS, not what label someone has slapped on our hardware or from whom we buy our hardware and what software our vendor decides to bundle with it. Right? If you don't like the Pegasos or whatever other than an Eyetech-distributed motherboard, so what? That should be your choice, just as other hardware should be available for others to choose. That's a necessity for a consumer/desktop OS to survive these days.

Without the certification scheme we would again be wide open for the con schemes from illuminaries such as IWIN, AntiGravity and all the others. Hardly a legacy you want to take forward into the mainstream.

That is plain silly. If a customer feels threatened by that vast dark mass of evil PPC hardware vendors out there (like the infamous con-artists Apple, Mai, Terrasoft, bplan, Total Impact...), he should be able to choose a "certified" or "licensed" vendor. That is in no way an excuse or justification for a compulsory licensing/bundling/dongling scheme.

[Seehund]

HyperionMP wrote:

MAI would not have been able to market these boards at this price if Eyetech would not have approached them with the AmigaOne project.

Come on! That's nonsense. What, have you fallen for Eyetech's "$3900 myth" too? Even the old "evaluation" boards were available for sale to the general public at "less than $300" if you were prepared to mount a separately delivered CPU of your choice yourself and didn't need the costly full developer support package.

It was Eyetech that insisted on revising the specs of the board (Southbridge etc.) and who guaranteed a minimal production run.

Nonsense again. Eyetech may have insisted whatever they liked, it would have no bearing on Mai's decision on what to do with their own hardware design, which they already had done at the time. It's the same thing as with the "AmigaOne XE", no mobo without a permanently soldered-down CPU was to be offered to us stupid AmigaOS users by Eyetech until they learned of the Teron PX. The embarrassing marketing on Eyetech's A1 pages even speaks of how "their engineers" "borrowed the latest cpu socket technology from Apple in the form of the purpose-designed ‘Megarray’ socket."
Also, when you have a ready PCB layout and have even already produced this at a fab, there's no need for a "minimal production run". Welcome to the JIT production of the 21st century (or even the late 20th...). If there would be any "minimal production run", it would be done thanks to the Linux and hw/sw developer markets.

It's Hyperion who are currently in colloboration with others doing the firmware for these boards.

Yes? That is not hardware design or hardware production.

I think you simply don't understand that there is now a partnership in place between Mai and Eyetech with respect to marketing these boards to different markets.

Uh, yes?? Eyetech will be one of Mai's hardware distributors, are you saying that there's ANYONE who doesn't understand that yet? Doesn't this very news item say so?


The point is still that there are totally viable hardware options, and even the exact same hardware as the "licensed" one out there, but AmigaOS users will not be allowed to buy it, and we won't even be allowed to buy AmigaOS separate from "licensed" hardware.


Now isn't there an OS to produce and try to get to run on as much hardware as possible and sell as much as possible, instead of backing up the business practices of one specific hardware distributor in online forums? I'd like to buy that OS.

[Seehund]

Ben, you ignore my point, even if someone else than Mai had anything whatsoever to do with Mai's product development, what would that matter? What matters is that there is not only valid alternative designs to the "licensed" hardware option, there's even an identical option. This is of course not very surprising, what's mind-boggling is that we AmigaOS users will still only be allowed to buy specifically selected hardware from (a) specially selected redistributor(s).
(Not that the plural "s" will ever become reality, but to satisfy the nitpickers...)

Hyperion is in constant contact with MAI's top-brass as developers of the Teron CX/AmigaOne Bios.

So you said, and that is still not hardware design or hardware production, and it has no bearing on that either.

Don't you think we have a better insight into the situation than you?

Actually, no, and I'm certainly not saying that I would have any special insight into Mai's product strategies and development.

Saying "hi Jason, hi Vasudha, we've modified a GPLed firmware for your product, wanna have it?" doesn't mean that the already produced and available product Eyetech is buying will become... umm... produced and available just because of that.

The very person who designed the hardware and who demonstrated it running YDL at LW does not yet know what firmware will be shipped pre-installed by default. Who cares? Switching firmware is usually a matter of two minutes of grinding from the floppy drive.

II'll reiterate it again: MAI had no intention of mass-marketing these boards prior to the Eyetech deal.

If the numbers Eyetech can be expected to distribute can be described as "mass-marketing", I'd say Mai already had some serious mass-marketing going on, both by themselves and that Inguard distributor.

Ever heard of the need to source parts in quantity to keep costs down?

Sure, but you were talking about "minimal production runs". It's not as if these puppies are suddenly mass produced and CHEAP, or use brand new hard-to-get components like the latest G4s, or custom components other than their own Articias, is it? Reaching a "minimal production run" order level is just not necessary to have the fab you hired push the Start button on their assembly line with already purchased components and a ready PCB design.

But as I said, Sure. Sure there is always a price difference between many and few. And sure, AmigaOS needs to run on exactly the same hardware from exactly the same distributors as the "rest of the world" uses for this effect to benefit AmigaOS users and the commercial attractiveness of AmigaOS to the largest extent - like it i for ANY OS.

And please don't start with the Linux PPC nonsense. Fact of the matter is that Linux PPC is marginal compared to Linux x86 and underdeveloped in quite a few areas.

What are you on about now? Why are you comparing Linux PPC with Linux x86 now? Linux x86 doesn't run on a Teron CX. AmigaOS will run on a Teron CX and Linux PPC runs on a Teron CX, compare the current market size of Linux (and every other desktop PPC OS) with the current market size of AmigaOS4. Which pulls the most weight in PPC hardware development, AmigaOS or every other OS? AmigaOS simply cannot afford to differentiate itself from an already small hardware market, and most certainly not by silly artificial means for no valid technical reason whatsoever.

[Seehund]

A small selection out of a huge wodge of bovine excrement...

I love you too.

READ MY LIPS: FIRMWARE IS NOT HARDWARE.

Umm, read my post, I have never said anything like that. What you quoted was my reply to this:

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure it's the debugging etc work on the A1 which now enables MAI to market their board in this way.

Apparently you meant "the work on the A1 firmware"? I interpreted it as "work on the A1", partially because that's what the text says, and partially because firmware design/debugging has not much to do with Mai's hardware design or whatever firmware options their distributors will be loading on it.

Incidentally, you don't know (nor do I, and nor, I suspect does Mr Mueller) if the Teron mobo set to go on sale in a couple of months isn't simply the AmigaOne.

It is the "AmigaOne", well it is when Eyetech has relabelled it and put their "Amiga ROM" :-D  in it.

You don't know what work has been done by the A1 developers over the past few months.

You added Teron CX specific code to PPCBoot and made another bunch of Linux distros run on the board? No? Then what did you do that has anything to do with this thread: More hardware and vendor options out of reach for AmigaOS users?

Sorry everybody.

No need to apologise, I know a "*plonk*" is easily forgotten. Your concern for what everybody should read and think of what they read is surely appreciated.

[Seehund]

Couldn't resist this: talking nonsense verifiable by anyone who can click an URL...

Or send an e-mail:

From: "Marketing Department"
To: "Emanuel Mair"
Subject: Re: Pricing
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:18:45 -0800

Thanks for your interest in Mai Logic products. The Teron CX evaluation
board is priced at US $3,900 ( technical suppport is also included in the
price). However, we also sell commercial Teron CX boards that include bare
board without CPU and SDRAM for less than US $300. We will provide the CPU
of  your choice at the current market price seperately.

That was HALF A YEAR AGO, and I thought most people here had seen it, but, as I said, I see the "$3900 myth" lives on.

[Seehund]

HyperionMP wrote:

BH: Sorry Seehund but that comment just disqualified you as somebody you can have a reasonable discussion with.

If you really think that a company like MAI conducts business in this way, that's the end of the debate for me.

"hi Jason, hi Vasudha, we've modified a GPLed firmware for your product, wanna have it?"

Give me a break ...

You're a smart man Ben, don't pretend to be stupid. Did you expect a reenactment of a complete corporate negotiation dialogue in a web forum? It's called "jokingly paraphrasing for illustratory purposes". For example, when people say that a Crimo$oft EULA says "By installing this software, all your first born child are belong to us", then they are joking, this exact text is nowhere to be found in the EULA.

Give me a break...