AOS4 & Amigaone

[Seehund]

wonea wrote:
I've seen some pegasos's going cheap.  Would these be able to run AOS4, or am I chancing death?

Of course they are perfectly able to run AmigaOS4, and so is most PPC consumer hardware (which nowadays basically means "a Mac").

The problem is not hardware or its vendors. The problem is AmigaOS not being allowed by its own IP-owners to be adapted to and sold for more hardware to more people on an open market. See my signature and this site...

BTW, I wouldn't call the Pegasoses "cheap". Of course they're cheap when compared to a so-called "AmigaOne", but it takes quite some effort to be THAT expensive! The Pegasos 2 is actually functioning as advertised and is obviously better hardware with better support (from a company that at least seems to know what they're doing regarding their own product) than anything offered with an "AmigaOne" sticker. Another advantage is that it's also available to buy. I don't see how there can be any discussion on what's the better hardware. The bummer is that you're not allowed to choose whether to run AOS and/or MOS on it.

If you've already decided to get AmigaOS4, I suggest you hold off buying anything until AOS4 is commercially available, and see what hardware they're going to allow you to buy as an AmigaOS user then. Who knows, maybe common sense will prevail and the IMO retarded and harmful "Amiga hardware" requirement will eventually be thrown back on the scrap heap of history where it belongs.

MOS looks okay, but checking out morphos.net makes me think its not worth bothering.  Plus I remember an interview with Carl Sassenrath about him not getting paid, plus someone from either FreeBSD or OpenBSD not getting paid.  Should I be giving money to a company like this?

Others have already addressed that here, and I don't dare to touch the subject. Here is a collection of links to statements from all involved parties regarding the OpenBSD controversy.

[Seehund]

jkirk wrote:

and how many thousands of dells and macs are produced at a single production run? without a large production run the cost is high. eyetech could not produce a high enough quantity to allow a lower price.

The end-customer price for a Teron once it's been relabeled to "AmigaOne" is severely inflated. That's a matter of fact. When Mai ordered even smaller Teron production volumes than Eyetech did (because the boards were meant to be included in Mai's Articia developer kits only), then you could still buy a Teron from Mai for ~$300 less than Eyetech's price for the exact same hardware, and AmigaOS was not included in Eyetech's price at the time.

Tigger's already mentioned Terrasoft announcing Teron PX sales at an initial (=high) price below $500 (including taxes, Yellow Dog Linux, support -- and a profit margin). That plan failed because the hardware was and is flawed and unsellable (by a reputable company) at any price.

as for genesi they can skirt around that issue with bplan(since they are a manufacturer) eyetech has to pay someone else to produce for them.

I wonder where this mythology has its origins? Genesi aren't "skirting around" anything and aren't underhandedly "subsidizing" anything or whatever other wacko theories I've seen been suggested as excuses for the price difference between Pegasoses (or whatever hardware) and "AmigaOnes".

Pegs are expensive, not cheap. It's relatively low-volume PowerPC hardware, after all. "AmigaOnes" are expensive and overpriced by an unnecessary middleman with a de facto monopoly on an artificially created pseudo-market consisting to a large part of customers who will pay anything for something with an "Amiga" related trademark, simple as that.

[Seehund]

Paul wrote:

@thread

Don't let Tigger scare you. The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...

For that matter, even the older ones aren't as "flawed" as the opposition originally tried to claim, and still trie to portray.

"The opposition"? "Claim"? Why is it that exposed and repeatedly proven hardware flaws are "claims from the opposition" around this part of the computing world when it comes to this particular series of motherboards, but if it were about e.g. ASUS motherboards then there would be no debate? "The USB on the ASUS A7M-266D mobo is broken, here's the proof. Don't buy it. Buy another product."

To answer myself, I think it could have something to do with the unfortunate lack of "another product" (combined with the irrational zealotry that tends to taint anything associated with The Trademark).

Combine this with hardware "reviews" consisting of community members posting screenshots and dnetc benchmarks, together with customers who have lived in isolation and now are drowning in their own drool to finally see something that's faster than their one decade old Amigas, even if it costs up to 80 times as much as similarly performing (and functional) x86 hardware from 1999.

"MD5SUM, what's that? Who need's 100Mbit throughput? It only corrupts data occasionally! The IDE issues are almost fixed, just get a 3rd party IDE controller card! 133 MHz bus schmus, 100 MHz works fine! The A4000 used to cost $3000, and I can't even remember what companies used to pay for a PDP-11!"

So what do we have? We have some early hardware (sorry Tigger, but you're wrong here, too. I ordered my XE when it was still being called a "developer" board.

It has never been sold as a "developer" board or with any disclaimer whatsoever with regards to the hardware. Never. That is a recently invented lie in response to warranty claims (I think it happened in (one of) the last "Q&As" with Redhouse on aw.net).

All Terons ever sold by Eyetech (with the possible exception for a very small number of Teron CX's of the first VIA686A revision, I'm not sure about that one detail today) have been sold as "AmigaOnes". I.e. with the alleged certified quality, guaranteed compatibility, having passed stringent testing, with full support et c. Those were among the reasons for why people were supposed to buy "AmigaOnes" from Eyetech instead of Terons from Mai, TSS, Inguard or whoever. This was the hardware end-users were supposed to buy now and later use with AmigaOS. People weren't supposed to buy new hardware again, once AmigaOS is released!

The only caveat posted before that lie was regarding software: AmigaOS is not yet finished, and firmware updates might be released, and that alone is why the "Earlybird" offer was said to be not suitable "for everyone".

The word "Earlybird" was the name of the offer where you would get AmigaOS for free (when available) if you bought an "AmigaOne" before a certain date. It had nothing to do with "developer" or "beta-testing" hardware.

And how the hell would a customer "develop" a motherboard that he's bought anyway?

[Seehund]

drHirudo wrote:

At the end of the day, anyone stupid enough to pay $800+ for one of those things got what they deserved. I have no sympathy.

If you have no sympathy why don't you just quit and stop repeating yourself? There are greener fields in the horizon you are looking at, I am sure.

I paid 800+ Euro for my MicroA1, and I don't feel sorry about this. I received working board with working AmigaOS 4, and that's what I expected. The software releases and updates in the past months are more than what I expected.

Seems you are smarter, after calling people like me stupid, but your rant about the price shows that your aren't paid good enough else that $800+ wouldn't be a fortune for you.

This is getting silly.
If I put out an ad for pine tree cones dipped in elk faeces and say I want $10 for each, then I don't think the reason to why you wouldn't want to buy one would be because you don't have $10!

Lots, maybe a majority, of adult employed people in the western industrialised world have $800. Amazingly enough, Eyetech have not sold a couple of hundred million "AmigaOnes" yet.

In the end of the day, I might be a stupid but I can spent big money for whatever I want, and I don't care what you think. And I am happy with my purchase, that's the most important.

With regards to the potential for survival and commercial viability of AmigaOS, the most important thing is not whether "drHirudo" is happy or not.

P.S. If you are that smart, why aren't you wealthy enough to buy both solutions and decide from first hand which is better? Ok, just enjoy you free MorphOS T-Shirt and be happy.

One usually can decide which hardware is better without buying it. Lando seems wealthy enough to buy an iBook G4 anyway...

[Seehund]

Mangar wrote:
Why are the developers of AOS4 tying the OS to specific hardware.

The developers (Hyperion) aren't the ones behind the tying. Reading between the lines when they post on forums, they don't give the impression of being overly enthusiastic about it either.

The ones behind the tying are a computer shop (Eyetech) and the company controlling the trademark and IP behind the OS (Amiga, Inc.).

Why? God knows.

Eyetech probably thought there would be money in it. Heh. So they printed their "AmigaOne" stickers and got the expected 1000-something people to empty their wallets. Now what?

As for AInc, they don't seem to have given a sh!t about AmigaOS when they accepted Eyetech's compulsory licensing idea, and AInc might have been tempted by a little quick (but small and short-term) licensing cash when everything was falling apart around them.

This is how the Amiga got in this mess in the first place by not allowing Amiga-Compatible computers. When IBM allowed anyone to make a clone of its computers the amiga was left in the dust.

Where is the business sense in this? They could make a lot more money off the OS than with hardware. Palm realized this when they started to license their OS to Sony and other PDA manufacturers.

Obviously there is no business sense. Maybe someone once thought there could be, but in that case I'd say they've been proven wrong over and over again for 3 years now.

Officially AInc do claim to welcome new hardware vendor licensees. In reality, everyone who so far has enquired and even negotiated (even to the point of a missing signature on the licensing agreement!) has been ignored or eventually turned down.

Regarding Palm, AmigaOS is not meant for or suitable for being embedded in PDA-type devices (even if Hyperion's new website strange enough says it is), and that's the sort of market where hardware vendor licensing is standard and expected. Not many users care about or even know about the OS that runs their calendar and address book apps, or install PDA OSs themselves.

Desktop computer end-user OSs are of course licensed for bundling by hardware vendors too, and if anyone actually would be interested to buy such a licence for AmigaOS then more power to them. The retarded thing that's done by AInc/Eyetech is making the licensing/bundling compulsory, and making the OS and its users dependent on abundant existence of hardware licensees. The OS is only supposed to be available bundled with "licenced" hardware on a market separated from the normal open market for that hardware. No separately sold copies for people to buy and install themselves. We may not buy the exact same hardware but sold by a normal "unlicensed" vendor.
No licence for vendor of hardware X = no port for hardware X and no sales for hardware X.

Give me AOS4 I can install on a PPC system of my choice and I'll buy it.

Yup. The most common "outsider's" comment posted in response to AmigaOS stories on e.g. OSNews seems to be along the lines of "if they insist on PPC, why the hell can't I buy it for a cheaper, better and faster Mac?"

[Seehund]

drHirudo wrote:

Lots, maybe a majority, of adult employed people in the western industrialised world have $800. Amazingly enough, Eyetech have not sold a couple of hundred million "AmigaOnes" yet.

The AmigaOne isn't aimed to the majority of the adult employed people in the western industrialised world. It's releases till now were mostly for the current or past Amiga users, which are not that much nowadays.

I think you might have missed my point. I was trying to say that it doesn't matter if you have the money, if you don't think the product is worth the money (or if you simply aren't interested).

I wasn't serious about the "Eyetech haven't sold millions" bit. Really! I was just trying to show how silly it looked when you speculated on Lando's (or anybody else's, for that matter) lack of funds as the reason for not buying an "AmigaOne".

With regards to the potential for survival and commercial viability of AmigaOS, the most important thing is not whether "drHirudo" is happy or not.

It's the most important for me. For me these 800 Euros were reasonable spent.

I know that's the most important for you, you just said so. I'm not arguing against your personal reasons.

One usually can decide which hardware is better without buying it. Lando seems wealthy enough to buy an iBook G4 anyway...

I can buy one too, but it wouldn't run AmigaOS 4 Also a 14" monitor is not a good one. After getting used to 20", everything smaller than that is crap for me :-D

Well, there you go. You haven't bought an iBook because you don't like it or you don't think it's worth the money for your purposes. Not because you can't afford it. QED.

[Seehund]

Tigger wrote:

I would agree with you except for one thing, Ben works/worked for Hyperion, and Ben bragged about writing the contract.  If one of your directors writes you a bad contract, and you sign it, saying its not your companies fault is an incorrect premise in my belief system.

I agree with that reasoning. I should have written "the developers which I've seen speaking on the matter" instead of just "Hyperion".

[Seehund]

reflect wrote:
So now the argument shifts from money to quality?

I think it's about both, and then some.

Yes, it's pricey for the reasons stated above. Yes, some thing don't work quite as they were intended. But ask the owners if they're happy or not. That's the only thing that matters in the end anyway.

That's the main thing that matters to THEM, the happy current "AmigaOne" customers. But AmigaOS must be sold to more people than those who are (still) happy with their already purchased "AmigaOnes".

Also, Eyetech are presumably like other computer shops, and would like to attract more customers as well, so in case anyone gives a toss about Eyetech's business, they too would benefit from actually finding good hardware to offer at sane prices.

It seems to me that just cause some people don't like the hardware for one reason or another, they try their hardest to discourage others (and to my knowledge, not one of these 'die-hard anti-advocates' even owns an A1). Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

Huh? On the contrary, I find it quite obvious and natural that those who shun a product for obvious and well documented reasons (faults, price, availability, customer support, whatever) would NOT spend their money on buying that product.

In case anyone would care, personally I'm not trying to discourage others from buying an "AmigaOne". Go on, have fun. But that doesn't mean I'm supposed to feel compelled to shut up when I see false marketing for it, or that I will abstain from mentioning the damage that this product and its vendors and licensors have done, only because we'd be expected to have some misguided loyalty to an arbitrarily applied trademark.

OTOH, one weird thing is that some of the product's biggest "unpaid salespersons" have NOT bought the product, at the same time as they work to hide flaws and discredit valid criticism and skeptics. Same thing with inexperienced users, who often don't seem to have much computer experience other than from their old Amigas, who join in the praising chant and argue against the exposure of any flaws and disadvantages.
(No names, but obviously I'm not referring to you, reflect).

In case you're talking about some boring old "red vs blue" game, then it seems to me like it's almost only "AmigaOne" users who have made the product's more or less hidden faults visible through use, and thus they are the people who have taken the hits. Faults isolated to the ArticiaS have been exposed by several parties though, both independent ones as well as "red and blue".

[Seehund]

reflect wrote:

Eyetech, afaik, licensed the design. That means they bought the design, produced some prototypes and then revised them as problems cropped up. Look at the Micro Mk2 for example (I have one here). Put an Mk2 and an Mk3 (aka -C) next to eachother and you see alot of differences, and I mean ALOT. So saying they're just "reflashing the rom" just makes you look ignorant.

[edit: Tigger already set you straight on that bit.]

Next you say that the Amiga community shouldn't pay for someone's failed attempts. The fact is, apart from the Phase5 Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC boards, what other boards are available right here, right now that are capable of running AOS4?

Macs and Pegasoses is the glaringly obvious answer to the question "if one makes a consumer PPC desktop OS, for which hardware would one try to sell it?" They're perfectly capable of running AmigaOS. It's AmigaOS, or whatever other OS, that needs to be adapted to hardware, not vice versa. From the developers we always hear how quick and easy it would be to make AOS4 run on Pegs/Macs, it's certainly not technical issues that's the problem here.
There might be more obscure options, but why not go with the obvious and with what more people could actually be expected to buy or already own for starters? Few options is the unfortunate effect of going PPC only, but that's actually a (partially) technical matter for once.

[Seehund]

FrankBrana wrote:
@Tiger

If everybody use UAE, wont be evolution at all in amiga land.Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.

C´mon. Support OS4, support MOS. Whatever option you choose, support real and modern hardware.

UAE runs on real and modern hardware. There is no Amiga hardware and no of evolution of such, and I don't think that many dreamt of poorly performing, faulty and overpriced Terons back when people used to think there one day could come new Amigas. That was when people wanted new Amigas because the old Amigas had lost against the competition due to poor performance and a high price!

So in case anyone would be interested in "supporting" a hardware vendor for their production of real and modern hardware, then he could do so by running UAE on such hardware. He would not do it by buying an "AmigaOne", which nowadays is only barely real (as in "available") and it's not more modern today than it was 4 years ago.

If we're supposed to think of what/who we're supporting when we buy something, then I think buying an "AmigaOne" is supporting consumer fraud, an unnecessary and mostly(?) unwanted monopoly, and stagnation of development. But all hardware vendors are commercial enterprises and shouldn't need "support" to be viable, at least not of the enforced "Amiga hardware licensing" kind. I think what you as a customer want and/or need is more relevant. Buy an "AmigaOne" or whatever because you like it or need it.

I feel no obligation to "support" Eyetech just because they have bought the rights to arbitrarily use a certain trademark for their distribution of 3rd party hardware. It's too bad that the current AOS4 sales model is apparently created to subsidise an otherwise irrelevant hardware vendor.