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Author Topic: Amiga airbrushed from history  (Read 7678 times)

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Offline quarkx

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Re: Amiga airbrushed from history
« on: October 10, 2009, 12:18:13 AM »
Quote from: pan1k;525321
Well, as far as I know, Commodore left advertising up to it's different areas. Check out you tube.. Commodore commercials are different for each regional area..


You are right, Commodore did leave its advertising up to the different regions. As a result, Jack shifted products to where they sold the most. Earliest example was the PET. Jack also charged more in Europe than in the US, And when the PET was selling like wildfire in the UK, he shipped nearly all of them out there. There was a time when you could not find a PET in the US, even thought they were made there.
That is also why products like the Colt and Commodore PC were made and sold in Germany, or the A500+ and A600 had such a small and limited release in North America ( I don't even think any A500+'s were released)- Because Commodore's strongest markets were Germany and the UK. Here in Canada, for example, I don't think the "high end PETS" (or "B Series" ) was ever sold here. All we had were the original Iron pets. The C116 was sold only in Germany. The US couldn't market Commodore at all, the only successful North American Campaigns were done by Kit Spenser when he was brought over form the UK office.
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Offline quarkx

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Re: Amiga airbrushed from history
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 01:36:42 PM »
Quote from: martyg;528133
Sure, acutally Bohuš was there to record it and should be putting it up at retrothing.com this week (at least that's what he just emailed me).
 
Some points that were addressed:
 
 
1) The deal between Amiga and Atari was with Warner Atari Inc., not with Jack's later Atari Corp. Jack never lent money as is often claimed, or offered a 98 cent stock purchase. Amiga began talks with Warner Communications during the fall of '83, agreed to a partnership at the January '84 CES, and had entered in to contract with Atari Inc. in early March of '84 with a $500,000 bridge loan, another million to be delivered at the signing of the licensing agreement that June, and an agreement for Atari Inc. to purchase 1 million shares at $3 a share, as well as payments for chip and later royalties on licensing. Development went across the entire spring on the project (named Mickey) all the way up to the pcb's being ordered and the team just waiting for the chips to be delivered.
 
2) There was no "pay back the loan or Atari gets the company" or pay back within a month, etc. The bridge loan was simply that - an initial payment as a signing bonus to help them with sorely needed seed money. It was given in early March. The reality is Amiga found they simply needed more money, didn't feel they were going to get enough through the Atari deal, so they actively began looking for more investors and a way out of the contract towards the end of Spring. Along came Commodore, they began meetings in early June, agreed to invest around $75 million, and gave them the $500,000 to pay back the bridge loan which they did at the end of June, lying and stating they couldn't get the chips to work and signing with Commodore the very same day.
 
3) The ST was never going to be based around Amiga techology, nor was it rushed to the market because of a lost deal. Jack knew nothing about the previous Wartner/Atari Inc./Amiga deal when he bought Atari Consumer on July 3rd., simply for it's manufacturing, distribution, and brand recognition. In fact there was a whole slew of 68000 and other advanced systems in development at Atari Inc. (which I also covered) that he was not interested in. Some of the Mickey team that wound up surviving the cuts and stayed on in other capacities even tried to broach the subject of the advanced projects with him and he wasn't interested. He already had the ST planned out and using the NS32032. In the mean time Commodore filed theft of property and trade secrets suits against Shiraz and the other engineers that had left for Jack in May, almost immediately after Jack announced the purchase of Atari Consumer. This included a temporary injunction against them doing any work for Jack on a new computer, which Commodore renewed several times over July. Towards the end of July while doing evaluations, Jack's son Leonard discovered the cashed $500,000 check (which I also showed), they investigated and found out about the previous deal. Like a gift horse they had Warner sign over the deal to him (it was not part of the original purchase) on Aug. 8th, and used it to hit Commodore back on Aug. 10th by going after Amiga for breach of contract (which they did). It was eventually settled out of court, and the suits against Shiraz et. al. were settled the following year. They switched to the 68000 in the interim because of supply issues with National, and wire wrapping for the ST (actually called RBP) began in early August and was completed by the beginning of Sept., with OS development starting then. The reason development was fast was because Commodore's initial suit had merit - Shiraz had mapped out a lot of it while still at Commodore that March and April and completed it that May and June (along with a line of new 8-bits being planned).
 
BTW, here's a copy of the original loan check to Amiga from Atari Inc.:
 
http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/aed/Amiga-check-07MAR84-wm.jpg

Interesting,
The book "On the Edge", and various interviews with Jay Miner and RJ Mitchel seem to portray a slightly different story (and different amounts- $24 million and $4.25/share IIRC). RJ explains it all in the DVD included with "Amiga Forever" and you can find it on you Tube. They, of course are slightly bias accounts from Amiga staff. I would wonder which story is closer to the truth. But you are right, Jack didn't find out until after he got Atari about the Amiga deal, but he did negotiate a deal with Amiga when he was still at Commodore, which never went anywhere (and left a real "Bad" attitude about Jack to the Amiga staff- He basically tried to squeeze Amiga for nothing.) Out of all the people interviewed for the book -RJ had really Bad feelings about Jack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeVcZ_NsCOI
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 02:00:14 PM by quarkx »
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Offline quarkx

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Re: Amiga airbrushed from history
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 09:42:22 PM »
Quote from: martyg;528197
Actually no, On the Edge (a wonderful book by Brian, that I also contributed to) recounts the meeting Jack had with them that Spring as part of his TTL (Tramel Technology Ltd.). Jack spent that Spring going across Silicon Valley looking for new technologies to possibly use in his computers. Amiga was one of several places he visited.
 
BTW - it's RJ Mical. As far as him, see below.
 

 
The amounts I gave come directly from the contracts.
 

 
RJ does a "storytelling" routine on his stage presentation. As a direct quote of his states - "If I have to choose between the truth and telling a good story - I prefer to tell a good story". Unfortunately, 99% of the missinformation comes from RJ - who was not involved in any of the actual business dealings. Jay was involved in the initial contact, but Dave Morse was the one who actually did all the meetings, correspondences, and negotiating.
 
Almost every word that comes out of RJ Mical's mouth in that stage storytelling you linked to is false. There was no deal for them to buy Amiga, there was a deal to provide access to the chips and licensing for production. There was no one month to negotiate (the hammering out of the licensing agreement was to be hammered out from the delivery of the check on March 7th through the final meeting on June 28th). The stock purchase was very clearly laid out (as I stated above and was actually reported in the Wall Street Journal that Summer as well), there was no dramatic negotiation and dropping stock offer. There was no agreement of "pay back the $500,000 or we get the company. What there was, is an agreement that if Amiga folds (i.e. goes bankrupt) because it can't meet it's financial obligations, that Atari Inc. gets access to the chip schematics (which were being held in escrow until the meeting on the 28th) and payback of the $500,000 plus interest (via liquidation if necessary). Amiga had financial deals with 5 other companies at the time and Atari needed some way to protect it's interest against the others should Amiga fold during the process. They never expected a payback, and badly needed money was only a guarantee for Amiga to move forward during the licensing discussion period, and it was to be rendered null on the signing of the licensing that Jun 28th. Which is also when the first chip fabrications were to be delivered to the Mickey engineering team. Likewise, there was no last minute meeting with Atari lawyers where he slammed a check on the table. Dave Morse cancelled the meeting on the 28th, showed up on the 29th at the COO's office with the $750,000 check to the complete surprise of him, claiming they couldn't get the chips to work properly. The COO also would not accept the check, as he didn't feel legaly authorized to do so (the deal was actually with Warner) and tried to find out from Dave why they wanted out the last minute and what it was really about. The last contact with Morse had been at the CES that early June with two meetings where they finalized the licensing agreement, shook hands and celebrated the end of a long process and looked forward to the formal signing at the end of the month. Shortly after he stopped returning calls and nobody had any contact with Amiga until he showed up at the office. During the 15 minute meeting the COO tried to assure Dave they had no intention of taking over the documents on the signing deadline date, they sincerely wanted to follow through on the signing and would give more time. Dave was adamant about wanting out, still claimed the chips didn't work, and the meeting ended.
 
What they didn't know was that Dave had also been negotiating with Commodore that entire month, who were first interested in a possible licensing and then buying the company outright. Dave had stated all along that his primary motivation was to build Amiga up enough to sell it, and this opportunity had come along - hence his wanting out and trying to portray the $500,00 as an escape clause. That's also why Amiga eventually wound up loosing the judgement summary and settled out of court.
 
This is all by sworn testimony, the actual contracts, etc.
 
Another interesting myth debunked, according to testimony on the Commodore side, is the oft repeated idea that they contacted and bought Amiga to get back at Jack or because they wanted a technology to compete against Jack. In actuality they begrudgingly met with Amiga at the behest of one of their (Commodore's) internal people who pushed for a meeting, as they (Commodore) already felt they had to many projects going on inside.
 

 
We've gone directly by the actual contracts, court testimony, engineering documents, etc. all of which we have in posession. We've also conducted extensive interviews with the engineers of the Mickey project (the name of the project at Atari Inc. that was to use the Amiga chips for a game console and later expandable computer), management, etc.
 

 
No, that was as TTL. He left Commodore in very early January, the meeting at Amiga took place that late April/early May.
 

 
Which is what primarily motivates most of his storytelling activities regarding that.
 
 
BTW, here's the wirewrap dev pcb layout for Mickey.  You'll notice the labled Amiga chip spots.  Final pcb's were ordered and to be delivered from the factory after the July 4h weekend to coincide with the expected delivery of the chips.


Cool, yes, sorry about the spelling on RJ's last name (it was early) but the book does give the $24 million number (I would get the exact page, but it is being lent out now) and some engineers at CBM were a bit angry at that because if management had sunk $24 million in engineering, they felt they could have come up with a better computer than the Amiga (this was a quote, I believe by (Rob) Russell, but I could be wrong).
An interesting note in the book was one of the people responsible for "setting up" the Amiga deal for CBM, left right after the deal to go work for Jack.

The book can be vague in some places though, I can list various examples of "mixed up" information, and such. Hopefully, in the new revision, it can clear up some of that info.
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Offline quarkx

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Re: Amiga airbrushed from history
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 11:00:02 PM »
Quote from: martyg;528227
I wasn't commenting about what Commodore paid. My comments regarding money, stock, etc. were in regards to Atari Inc's arrangement with Amiga.  Though again, the 75 mil was direct from news sources of the time and included cash and stock.

Sorry, I though you were referring to the actual payment. My bad.
 
 
Quote from: martyg;528227
Yes, Red I believe, but that was with regards to going to meet them. Not in regards to any actual deal.
 
I know he's planning a lot of good material. I was just happy to be able to get Jay's protege, Joe Decuir, in there and his actual involvement with Amiga (starting with being badge #3). He was laying low for a lot of years because of the lawsuits.

Yes, IIRC it was Red. I believe he(Brian) also has an interview with Jack himself in the new edition (according to Bil Herd), I can't wait for that! they seem to keep bumping back the release date though (very frustrating).

Thanks for the info though, it is always interesting to get some more facts on the issue.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 11:03:31 PM by quarkx »
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Offline quarkx

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Re: Amiga airbrushed from history
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 06:07:40 AM »
Not just Amiga, but let's not forget about the lesser known Commodore Computers:
The "B" series- what the pet should have evolved into.
The TED Series- what happens when marketing gets a hold of a good idea and dedicates on it, over and over until it has nothing to do with the original concept.
The LCD laptop- what happens when a CEO listens to the CEO of the biggest competitor.
The whole Commodore PC line.
The C900- all the Z-people and the YEARS of work they put into a dedicated Unix box
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