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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« on: July 01, 2008, 06:47:18 AM »
I think we need to get the layouts for the PPC boards and start making them one at the time. This would give us both 68K in the existing Amigas and PPC for OS4.

Hyperion is unlikely to port OS 4 away from PPC because of an unjustified concern that running an OS on x86 automatically means competition with Microsoft and Apple. Apple proved it that it "only" takes a really polished product to sell more OS licenses and machines to run it on. Apple went from having really bad hardware and an outdated OS to being a leader in both hardware AND OS in under 10 years.

Theoretical timelines. If it took about a decade for a really nimble company (Apple) to turn things around, how long would it take to turn things around for a less-nimble company? 25 years? 50 years? Do we have that much time?

I'd say that if several hundreds (or even thousands) custom-made (hand-made?) PPC boards are made for A1200s (or A3000/A4000), that would be far better than any petition.

Aside from that, I still do not fully understand the gripe between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. I doubt that their lawyers can make sense of it either. If an agreement says that OS can only be sold with a new computer and there is no friggin new computer because nobody is making it, maybe it is time to revise that agreement.

Hyperions! Can you port OS 4 to the iPhone? (in theory, at least). There will be plenty of iPhones going around for years to come. Cool hardware, too.

Plan B: Blizzard PPC emulator? ;)


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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 03:42:29 PM »
The irony in Amiga Inc/Hyperion situation is that Amiga has no competition since it has such dedicated following. Macs used to be sleepy, slow machines, with outdated OSes and still had the strong following. Amiga has excellent hardware, an OS that is *still* competitive (even without Amiga OS4) *and* it has dedicated following.

Most people who buy Macs use them for fairly mundane purposes - surfing, Photoshopping, digital lifestyle stuff :) and I do not see a single reason why Amiga cannot do the same or better *today* with or without OS 4.

PPC cards are so rare and expensive that without additional "inventory", they only add to the predicament of Amiga OS 4. Following the same thought, if someone was able to design a PPC card, designing an Intel-based card should not be far fetched. Port OS 4 to Intel, then sell the OS CD with the card as one package. If hardware was available, I am sure applications would grow around it fairly fast, given Amiga's user base.

I also like the AROS idea, but lack of binary compatibility is problematic. However, I keep reminding myself how elegantly Apple solved the "old mac" issue with Carbon. Could not AROS emulate "old Amiga" and still pave the way towards the new, running on some cool Intel hardware with clear hardware requirements? I am not aware of "Classic Amiga" emulator (WinUAE) for AROS but it seems like a feasible solution, particularly for games and demo scene. Would not that be cool? 68K that runs way faster via software and a great Intel-based OS underneath.

What nobody wants is some AmigaAnywhere stuff which smells of overcooked java beans. I think we all identify Amiga with some cool metal, silicon and software :) - not more, but also not anything less.

MorphOS also looks good, but seems to be PPC-based, which is a no-no since there is no hardware available.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that binary-compatible WinUAE port for AROS would make Amiga a viable platform once again. And open source to boot.
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 03:53:42 PM »
@stepcep2: Running OS 4 is not the goal in itself. The goal is to run the latest Amiga OS on widely available hardware.

Since Amiga OS is closed-source, with two companies behind OS and Amiga trademark in a deadlock (isn't that ironic? OS knew how to do multitasking 20 years ago and people owning it are in deadlock), we have two options:

1) Wait until happy thoughts and reason prevail. Note that glaciers are melting faster than any progress is made on the Amiga Inc/Hyperion front

2) Find an alternative with an open-source OS (AROS, for example), build "classic amiga" environment within in with WinUAE and maintain the list of compatible hardware (Motherboards, graphics cards, etc.)

WinUAE runs so well on my T40s and X41 (fast + reliable) even though they are a bit dated, that it would be a pity not to integrate it into the future OS platform for Amiga. New software could then be written/recompiled for the new OS and the development could, at least in theory, continue. Linux has an amazing developer support and Amiga (Amiga = OS + Hardware + Software) should have the same. "Classic Amiga" would support 68K development for those who just can't get enough of "Motoroller MC68000". Future apps would have to support Amiga OS APIs *and* a limited selection of Intel-based hardware.

With these thoughts, another question. Which one of the open-source "flavors" of Amiga OS-compatible OSes would be the best foundation for this. AROS or something else? It seems that all "commercial" Amiga OS efforts are using code for AROS anyway (both Hyperion and Amiga Inc use their source code, according to AROS site).

Given that OS 5 may never see the light of day (if history is any guide), getting a 68K emulator to work under AROS seems to be the only feasible/within-reach option to run Amiga stuff on top-notch hardware *and* have 68K as a legacy option for all those applications and games we want to continue using.

What is interesting to me is that Mac OS X did not attract the same kind of application developers as Amiga OS once did back in the day. This gives me hope that if a solid platform existed, same (better!) cool applications would come back to amaze us :)

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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 12:54:39 AM »
@Atheist

NatAmi looks great but it is not available yet (or not priced yet). I will be following this one as well

More info is available at http://www.natami.net/qa.htm

Special hardware is great, provided the manufacturer can keep up with the demand. I'd rather have Amiga OS on a machine I can put together from high-end components which are readily available and not tied to one manufacturer. However, I am interested in NatAmi although I do not understand your claim about its scalability up to 3GHz. Can you provide more details? Since NatAmi is based on MC68060, how do we get to 3GHz (in theory)?

The most likely scenario for Amiga is that no corporate entity will throw its weight in full into Amiga OS/Amiga Hardware arena. Most reasonable scenario would be a high-end, Intel-based platform (Dual Core, graphics with 512MB RAM, 4 GB RAM (maximum for 32-bit), fastest SCSI we can find, best soundcard we can find). Such a platform would not be outdated in a few years, at which point an upgrade to OS would be due. All of this is a lot of work of course, which is best handled in an open-source scenario. Amiga OS could really use an API extension for multi-processor support down the road.

Next question is "who is going to write applications for open-source Amiga OS?" Probably the same people who wrote all those amazing applications for Linux. Amiga has a big advantage over Linux and Mac OS X: a long-standing multimedia legacy, a ton of useful applications, probably the best possible 32-bit OS kernel out there and an excellent application framework API. Linux lacks many of these things even today and Mac OS X is just starting to pick up steam on the development front. Platform with best applications wins (eventually). Amiga tanked in part because of limited developer support in fields other than graphics and animation.
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 01:44:08 AM »
@ persia:

I spent some time today to read up on current status of AROS and it seems that UAE (WinUAE was my lapse, I meant to say UAE of course) port already exists (mentioned on the FAQ page). On the same page, it also says that 68k emulation does not work because of little-endian vs. big-endian issue (not quite clear why this is an issue, as WinUAE runs on Intel even though Intel should have the same issue and does not - maybe it just needs to be clarified).

In any case, UAE could provide backward-compatibility while AROS could provide API compatibility going forward. Either way, it would be Amiga OS compatible. I will definitely take a look at the Virtual Machine they made available for download which contains AROS.

Natami is a great project, but my concern is that it may not be able to serve the market. If it does, great. If it does not, I will continue to look at AROS. Worst thing that can happen is that I will learn something new about Amiga OS, APIs and emulators.
Quote

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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 05:49:17 PM »
@persia

Amiga's niche overlaps with Mac's niche but can go much further with broadcast quality animations (think pixar), and video authoring and editing.

With good development tools (which can target "Amiga Classic" (68K, for the UAE) and "Amiga Nuevo" (for the actual platform OS is running on) :), Amiga's (small) kernel can be very useful for both desktop and mobile devices.

However you twist and turn the issue, you end up with one question: where is the hardware and where are the drivers for that hardware that work with *any* Amiga OS? Lack of stable drivers is at the root of Vista disaster because Microsoft did not learn the lesson from Windows 95 (which was also a rollout disaster but coincided with "it is time to get some new machines" so few noticed the disaster with hardware incompatibility. At the time, I had a 486DX-33MHz and about $1 million dollars worth of memory in that machine (20 megs, when memory was priced like gold :) - and it still was not enough for Windows 95. It did not like the SCSI, it did not like the graphics card, it did not like the chipset (!?), so I ended up with a very expensive print server and a brand-spankin' new "Windows 95" machine which was a piece of crap (sluggish and occassionally driver-buggy). No wonder Apple insists on guarding its hardware like there is no tomorrow.

Interestingly, drivers are the hottest topic on AROS project. To push Amiga forward, we need to roll up our sleeves and write some drivers (for AROS) to support high-end components (such as those cool Voodoo cards cooled with two fans and 512MB RAM).

Mobile platform for Amiga is a project in its own right, possibly even more far-fetched than OS4 on Intel :)

AROS works, looks good, boots up in no time. Apps included in the VM distribution are very quick, hinting at great performance under the hood.
===================================================
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2008, 08:21:34 PM »
@ bloodline:

I am familiar with little-endian/big-endian issues since Z80 and 6502 era. It is a difficult problem (if not impossible) to resolve 100% at the binary level when transitioning to a big-endian platform.

Let's think about how critical or non-critical the interaction of 68k with x86 world really is. If you have compiler (or compilers) which can target one or the other environment, there is no issue. If single binary should run in both environments, we have to talk about universal binaries (another term from Apple's vocabulary).

If you want to write software that crosses the 68k-x86 boundary (for whatever reason), you'd have to integrate these applications as if they lived in two different memory spaces, two different CPUS, two different of everything. We are talking pipes, web services and god knows what else here. New APIs. New Library.


How many applications would do this? Probably none, and certainly no existing application running on Amiga OS would do it (they are binaries and don't know any better :).

We need 68k mainly for compatibility. The x86 environment is supposed to attract developers familiar with Amiga OS and APIs to develop *new* applications, while being able to run the old ones. Initially, development tools *for AROS* would be needed to jumpstart this. 68K environment also has limitations when it comes to 32 vs. 64-bit and this is another reason why it should be contained in its own "Classic" environment. Future platform must not be constrained with 32 bit.

What you pointed out about Apple and selected few killer apps is absolutely true. Mac OS X started out with very few apps but they were all very good. Apple also had Microsoft's support (with Office) and that means a lot in marketing terms.

Even if all these pieces were working *today*, I very much doubt that any corporate entity would embrace Amiga. Too many companies underestimated/misunderstood/burned/got-burned-with the platform that anyone would think twice before investing a ton of money into Amiga. This is the strongest argument for open source effort. With a good single video driver (video drivers are actually very good even today. You should take a look at "Doom" shipped with AROS) and single good audio driver, AROS would become a viable development platform.

Again, Apple is a good model here: they bake video and audio onto the motherboard and that's it. No hassle with umpteen drivers. When you think about it, Windows is the same; it works flawlessly on Lenovo laptops (for example) and falls on its face on cheap clones with questionable components.

68k platform is history. It is a 30-year old technology and it is a dead-end. PowerPC is also a dead-end in terms of future development. AMD and Intel are the only two companies committed to cranking out new hardware (boards and CPUS and chipsets) that you can rely on. The "only" thing standing between Amiga OS and a-hardware platform are suitable drivers and that is the most difficult part. Good news is that most popular pieces of hardware tend to be well documented (in terms of what they support and what the issues are).

Once everything is working, the question becomes "how is this any different than Mac or Windows?" Amiga would have to have siginificantly better bandwidth for graphics/video intensive development *and* multicore support to establish itself. As of today, Amiga OS does not support multiple cores. Starting next year, Apple will push OS X much stronger into multicore market with the new improvements.

Also, it would have to have better development tools and support from major software manufacturers (from games onward). It is a fairly tall order.

Last 20 years brought about a significant change to the marketplace: even high-end hardware is a commodity. However, as Apple showed, *making it all work together* isn't a commodity.

I keep mentioning Apple because they almost killed off Mac platform in the early 90s. Then Stevie came back and made it really sexy with flashy plastic and same crappy OS. Everyone bought into it. While everyone was busy admiring colorful plastic, Stevie was working on OS X.

Heck, first thing we need is some flashy case for the Amiga. Titanium-alloy thing that looks like it is moving at fast speeds. With only one red LED in the middle. If you put an Amiga back into the beige case, might as well trash it immediately.


Quote from bloodline:
68k is not a problem as long as the 68k programs are not allowed to interact freely with the x86 programs. That is why we want to take the approach of putting the 68k apps into their own little VM world of UAE and carefully control how much interaction they have with x86 AROS.

If we simply integrated the 68k emulator into the OS like MOS and AOS4, then the 68k apps would be allowed to "play around" with the x86 system structures... the problem is that on x86 data is stored : "DCBA" (little endien) and on the 68K the same data is stored: "ABCD" (big endien)... so 68k apps in a x86 environment will read the data the wrong way around, and thus fail.

Things get even more problematic when you use the 64bit x86 verion of AROS (which is probably more advanced now than the 32bit x86 version).. where the 68k apps have no concept of 64bits at all (no 68k Amiga software is 64bit compatible) and wouldn't work even if the x86 was big endien!

All my x86 machines are 64bit now...
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2008, 03:31:11 AM »
@ koaftder:

MOS? PPC? Please give us more details.

For the readers of this thread, I have to qualify my interest in Amiga as somewhat experimental: writing applications with Amiga APIs (Intuition) is not a very difficult task (in C, if you have Amiga Kernel/Hardware/Intuition manuals) and with a UI framework (such as Zune in AROS) it should be even more straightforward. (Note to AROS: Name "Zune" is very unfortunate). I also have some experience with Objective-C, another great application and UI framework. In my recent posts, I mentioned AROS as a possible platform to keep Amiga's application framework alive. 68k development (in assembler) is a waste of time going forward as much as I hate to admit that.

Whether Amiga can do MP3 or not is a question of hardware. Every *modern* sound card has a powerful DSP which can decompress MP3 in real time. 68K processors have no place in the digital-lifestyle world. Amiga OS does not have to "run" on 68K to be an Amiga OS. However, Amiga OS has to have *real* multi-tasking with a very small memory footprint. Anyone who wrote software on Amiga knows how elegantly a multi-threaded application can be implemented and how efficient it can be. The next level would be the multiprocessor support. Do you think Hyperion and Amiga Inc will add multiprocessor support? Of course not. This could be the single biggest advantage of a future Amiga OS - automatic scalability across all available cores. Intel is planning a release of 80+ core CPU in a few years and this is the direction all *great* OSes will be going. Applications will also have to change from single-CPU model to a multicore model to take advantage of new hardware.

My point here is that sticking to something that's been out there for 20+ years is very limiting. One has to take what is portable (application framework, efficient kernel) and extend it for new hardware to *maintain* great performance.

Retro gaming should always remain a part of Amiga OS and UAE is excellent for that. However, future applications should be written for a new Amiga OS.

I am trying to figure out how much time I can give to AROS project and where could I "jump in". I also wonder how many people out there are thinking the same.
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2008, 08:37:36 PM »
@arnljot:

Maybe this thread just quieted down. :)

To keep Amiga alive, new software releases are necessary - for the 68K platform. Since UAE runs under Windows, Linux (Mac also?), there is plenty of hardware to enjoy "Amiga experience" on even today.

The real question is, what kind of applications have a market for Amiga? Games only? Video/audio processing applications? Productivity software? If Linux has such a broad user base, there is no reason why Linux+UAE should not have a broad user base. Games alone are the reason to "switch." Given the nature of software market for Amiga (abandonware in digital format - no floppies for most part), piracy would most certainly be an issue to a degree.

As I mentioned before, Amiga has some options today, although it seems that it has none. AROS is one possibility, Linux+UAE/Windows+UAE/Mac+UAE another. NatAmi is also a possibility but there is no timeline on that project yet. Minimig looks very good although it is not clear to me if that's just a motherboard or a fully functioning A500-clone.

Yes, "real hardware" is "missing" but the experience of every platform out there is *very* software-driven. Vista is a good example. You can have the best machine to run it on, and people will still perceive Vista as second-rate because of its quirks.

Although I mentioned before that 68K software development is not the best way forward, software is written in C and could be targeted to 68K or whatever other platform. Since UAE has a 68K emulator built in, this is not a showstopper. However, for a New Wave of software packages, Amiga would have to step out of the 68k shell.

Would it  be possible to run Firefox or StarOffice on Amiga (at least in theory)? Very likely, but limitations of 68K architecture remain a constraint.

Which brings me to another thought: what if 68K emulation in UAE allowed for a bigger address space, with either extended command set or an intelligent memory manager?

In this case, 68K language would become something like IL in .NET (low-level language which allows just in time compilation). 68K assembler even looks like a higher-level language :) NatAmi project seems to be using same or similar approach. With memory bounds extended, UAE really could become a new Amiga Operating System in its own right which would run on top of the Linux/Windows/Mac platform.

Sam
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2008, 04:34:27 PM »
Apple's revival is based on Stevie's Return (to the Dragon's Nest) and purchase of NEXT. NEXT OS was a decade ahead of its time when it came out (around the same time when Amiga started making waves). Does this sound familiar? It was based on, gasp, 68K architecture but designed in a platform-independent way because it grew out of FreeBSD (Mach). Stevie was taking advantage of open source before anyone else knew what it meant *and* he was keeping the OS portable. Portability and clean design (software and hardware) are at the heart of Apple's philosophy. I am by no means a hard-core Apple fan, but I have learned a lot from them :) and their products.

As of OS 4 (and 4.1 if it is really in the works), I tend to ignore it because it does not offer any tangible advantage over OS 3.9. PPC is a dead platform and I do not intend to throw a lot of money after an obsolete Blizzard/Cyberstorm card. Instead, I will just buy another Macbook Pro because I can actually *use* it. Amiga in its present situation, let's face it, is merely a curiosity from the 68K era. With a lot of games :) Productivity applications seem very dated. Platform is largely without support from a major corporate entity. This is why it is so puzzling to me that AROS did not take stronger hold. But, not all things Amiga make sense all the time :)

Can someone post a short list of OS 4/4.1 advantages over OS 3.9? PPC card costs about as much as a half (!) of a top-of-the-line MacBook Pro and I *really* want to know the *real* price of the upgrade. For a monitor connection, I found a great RGB-to-SCART cable which produces a very nice picture on somewhat expensive LCD TV. The "good picture" alone will cost you about $500 on Amiga (with or without flickerfixer witchcraft). Talk about having a choice how to burn five Benjamins.

In another post, I wrote that Amiga's pricing was always an issue. It was just too expensive towards its "demise date" -in comparison with competition. I don't know about others on this forum, but I do look to spend a *reasonable* amount on hardware/software (for selfish and business reasons). This is why I did not buy a Mac G3/G4 when it was released, but much later when it was a bit vintaged. Mac G3/G4 machines offered little more than a colorful plastic shell, with the same sluggish OS. I understand that Apple had to do what it had to do to keep money flowing in for further development, at the time when Woz was too busy with Kathy Griffin and writing his book which left no time to help out with motherboards.

For my money, OS X Leopard is the first *serious* OS from Apple in years because, for once, its timing was perfect, platform fast and secure for the near and mid-term future (going multicore) and SDK simply the best out there. Nothing on IntelMac is half-a$$ed, semi-done or experimental. It is the real deal, the pinnacle of decades of semi-finished, very cool and underpowered products. Stevie is a genius because he made so many mistakes along the way and capitalized on them while keeping the Cool going.

The biggest issue with Amiga may not be the hardware but software. Without a software market, there are no new applications and no need for new hardware. It is a vicious circle, a catch-22 in a Devil's Kitchen (in einer Teufelskueche - this is just for bloodline :)

If German (electrical) engineering could not save Amiga hardware platform, who can? German industrial design saved Apple because it provided a template for the "new" Mac look (of which I have "Braun's" originals laying around in my home). But they are not easy to "copy".

Did anyone manage to copy the BMW ("beemer")? How about a Porsche? PPC Blizzard/Cyberstorm cards? You get my point :)

And we know that Stevie even enjoys German-made washing machines because they have such a cool user interface.

Real artists ship. And steal. In quantities. Amiga needs a good "thief". It also needs to move out of her (evil) dad's basement after all these years, get a haircut, fake boobs , whatever it takes to get "stolen."
 :-D
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2008, 10:02:44 PM »
@ bloodline

Jonathan Ive was looking at products designed by Braun (German company, makes appliances) back in the 60s and early 70s. Virtually ALL Apple's designs (casing) for G3/G4/G5 iMacs, iPod are not just inspired but almost straight copies of Braun's timeless design. If you google "apple design braun" or "apple design bauhaus" I am sure you will find a lot of interesting articles. Braun has drawn its inspiration from Bauhaus - THE school of industrial design from all the way back in the 1930s. It is said that even legendary Dr. Dipl. Ing Ferdinand Porsche has "stolen" some curves from Bauhaus. He did however improve on it by punching holes in the metal, to reduce weight without sacrificing structural strength of the design. Many of these sources and articles are available in out-of-print books and in German only.

Apple's G5 desktops feature "punctured metal", first featured on early Braun/Grundig/Telefunken AMFM radio receivers. Does anyone even remember Grundig and Telefunken?

Form und Funktion - das Grundprinzip der Bauhaus-Designschule. In Chicago, everywhere you look you can see great examples of same influences applied to architecture, particularly in designs by Frank Lloyd Wright. Not to mention stunning Art Deco designs :)
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 02:46:17 AM »
I may be "preaching to the choir" but I am still trying to figure out why Amiga OS is stuck in 68k world (and PPC world) when Linux (for example) has little trouble attracting people to further develop the platform. Had it not been for UAE (and WinUAE in particular), Amiga would be in an even worse shape.

For now, Amiga's future depends on UAE and AROS - both open source projects.

I am also trying to find out how Amiga Inc. and Hyperion GmbH employees are making it when they do not have a large market. In other words, I am trying to understand the business model behind companies who have cornered themselves out of the market and continue to work on a software product for which nobody (at least it seems that way) is developing software anymore and for which there is little or no hardware to run it on.

There are still two pieces of vaporware to discuss: AmigaAnywhere and OS 5 (which should be "better than OS X and run on any hardware platform"). Amiga Inc. even hired some guy (it says so on the home page) who wrote a software development IDE which runs under OS 4. Again, I am trying to understand how Amiga Inc and Hyperion can sustain themselves in the situation where there is no market for the OS and for Amiga. There is a lot of interest of course and there are, what, maybe few thousand PPC cards out there. Very puzzling.

I am sticking to OS 3.9. At some point I may even "retire" my Amiga collection for good. Yes, I have games but I am not really a gamer (hunter & gatherer. Or, in German, Jaeger und Sammler :) but more of a software afficionado :) The PPC thing reminds me of collecting expensive art pieces: you spend a lot of money on it and hang it on the wall. Not the best thing to do if you like software.

Maybe the only worse thing to do would be to go to amiga.com/shop and browse a "random selection" for games for ... for frigging Windows OS :)))))

Amiga is through the Windows. There is your direction. However you slice it and dice it, Amiga goes through (or out of) the Window(s) :)))))

And we have two Bills to depend on; one is retired and chasing World Peace and the other cannot deliver anything but a press release.
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2x(A500+GVP Hard drive), A4000/VT, A3000/386SX, A1200/Blizzard 1230 50MHz, A2000/68040/GVP/SCSI/Toaster, A2500/GVP/SCSI, A3000/Toaster, G4 Mac Mac SE30, Thinkpads T40s/X41, Linux boxes...