To Vampire or not

[wawrzon]

-A compatible 68k MMU

sorry but this is a completely false information. apollo team/gunnar has never promissed mmu nor considered 68030/40 or 60 mmu reimplementation as option. i remember this very well, since i have lived through discussions about the subject on german forums mostly between gunnar and thor.

i would prefer to have a core with backwards compatible mmu (for debugging purposes) as well as fpu. but it isnt my project and it isnt my decision to take. i can be supportive about projects without making bold demands. if vampire/ apollo wont suit my needs ill simply skip on it. so far i am comfortable to cooperate simply using my genuine amigas and uae..

[wawrzon]

And since apps under AROS68K often require an fpu...

interesting. how have you discovered that? own experience or assumptions as customary among aros complainers?

[wawrzon]

Fascinating...doing your Vulcan impression, are you?
Perhaps requires is too strong a phrase, would you prefer can use (and often runs better with) an FPU?

aros software requires fpu as much as amiga software. that is usually then when its sensible. it doesnt require fpu by design. on aros 68k you would likely mostly want to use genuine amiga software, simply because it is a much larger choice. in this case requirements would simply be the same.

Funny, I didn't think it was much of a complaint, asking for support for instructions that have been with us for decades.

Are you sure that isn't a matter of you being an apologist vs my being a "complainer"?

no. at this point im simply informing you about the state of affairs and correcting your wrong assumptions according to the subject i have obviously more experience with than you.

[wawrzon]

Your grasp of the "obvious" misses a few points.
A developer targeting AROS specifically, may very well be porting code from X86 AROS to AROS 68K, so floating point routines would be likely.

you dont need to hypothetize about all that. aros has a pool of software in contribs and ports that compile for different targets a the same time. x86, arm or plain mc68000. check yourself.

AROS while it is an AmigaOS analogue, should have to potential to surpass AmigaOS in capability.

it does.

And as about 20% of all Amiga software supports an FPU, its entirely possible that software specifically designed with AROS in mind could exceed that percentage.

as i said. if necessary.

SO, before you write off at least 1/5th of all of our software...

Also, as to your experience level, with AROS 68K I have no doubt, with 68K platforms in general, its really unlikely.
My company was building its own hardware when most of you were focused on playing games with your A500s.
Which appears to be the same focus many of you still have, since those are the demos you show on YouTube.
And since games rarely require a FPU, you're not really likely to be too worried about it. Are you?

i habe not put any videos on youtube..

Now as for something like Lightwave or Aladdin4D...
(Or anything that might require heavy mathematics)...
Obviously the Vampire (running AROS OR AmigaOS) is still going to be at a disadvantage.

cant you think of some more original application example then raytracers? that btw usally even had integer binaries on amiga. web browser? or maybe fractal generator?

SO, instead of trying to distract others from the point I've made, why not stop being an apologist, and admit that floating point support would be useful?

certainly. i dont discuss that, just your other mistakes.

This isn't a "wah, you're not being fair" issue, or a "uh, you just don't like AROS" issue. Its a simple matter of a feature set being missing from your cpu. Its a HARDWARE issue (btw - that's the topic, hardware).

When you're ready to stop pointing fingers or pontificating...

as soon as you stop spreading wrong assumptions about aros 68k as facts, you obviously know nothing of.

[wawrzon]

the fpu was not finished according to what gunnar said. it worked to certain extent, but there were incompatibilities left and features missing, which caused for instance mac os to crash under shape shifter. therefore it has been disabled. because it was not compatible enough to guarantee regular operation, without people constantly complaining, that the fpu is there but doesnt work as they expected.

you can search german forums for appropriate posts on subject or refer to apollo site fpu subject thread. discussing gunnars character and personal attitudes has nothing much to do with the problem technically and makes it look like you have some personal issues.

[wawrzon]

@kolla:

another load of emotional personal considerations about the person "gunnar". what should i say to all these assumptions and estimates? simply stand back and see how this will roll off.

on the contrary to tabor board or aone1222, as they like to call it, a fpga core is not set in stone. the more users the more chances to iron out the bugs. will these chances be taken seriously? we will see.

btw, have you now confirmed aros68k booting on mist or not? this would be something constructive to test rather than ranting against gunnar, especially if you want to stupport alternatives to apollo and vampire projects.

[wawrzon]

I doubt there will ever be an FPU, since it depends on asm coders being willing to put in work hours on new software, rather than ensuring compatibility with existing software.

if people cannot be bothered to put even few hours writing software to test, hey have no say about someone elses project he has likely put thosuands of hours into. simple as that.

[wawrzon]

Maybe advertising the FPU before it is ready is a bad idea then?

Btw - who were contacted 12+ months ago?

we have heard that now for hundred times. okay. now what?

you dont like your vampire, sell it. youll probably get a premium price and cash up on your investment. so what about that mist test i asked you about?

[wawrzon]

I was told that only if I could see and use the Vampire myself, I would be convinced.
I was told that I should shut up since I did not even have a Vampire myself.
It was only logical that I should buy Vampire, right? So I did, both of them.
Am I convinced? Not really. Should I still shut up? Apparently. :laughing:

im not sure who told you all this. certainly not me. and you have had your say again and again. you are free to repeat it to the death, but isnt there something more interesting to do?

[wawrzon]

The non-standard fpu is the reason I'm not buying the A1222/Tabor.

as if it was everybodys interest, what you are buying and what not.

[wawrzon]

If you want real drama about a commercial endeavor you need to look at the BigRAM thread.

wtf? jens forgot to mention that it will be slow as hell and people are climbing the walls? i doubt that.  dont really remember customers being disappointed with this gimmick as much as audience commenting on every development of apollo core or vampire, be it the raam amount it comes with. which is actually a good sign.