New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way

[wawrzon]

One kickstart for all amigas sounds like a nightmare to get right

aros kickstart is the answer;)

[wawrzon]

Does it come with a scsci.device that detects and supports all the different disk controllers?

the disk controllers have usually their own device in their own rom. aros comes with ata device that could still be improved pretty much imho, especially it seems slow and it has currently a trouble with a4000 internal ide that is hard to trace down. but i am able to boot aros iso as is on most amiga configs and controllers i have thrown it on, like a1200 ide, fastata4000, cybscsi.device, cybppc.device...

the pretty empty list of supported hardware down this page is outdated:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/68k_support

in the meantime im putting a simple actual list of supported systems together in here:
http://www.amigaforum.de/index.php?topic=44.0

[wawrzon]

I meant the internal controllers provided with scsi.device in kickstart, like A600, A1200, A4000, A3000, A4000T and I have probably forgotten some. Those are mainly the reason why there are different kickstarts in the first place.

yes the controllers are included in aros kickstart that could be put in a flash and then you have all that accessible at boot time including cd-rom. just none does it currently, but that is the reason to have it in kickstart of course.

[wawrzon]

It most definitely is. Actually, it is a version that is half-way between the 3.1 V40 release and the version in AOS 4.x. The big difference is here, however, that I approached the owner (or at least, the owner "to the best of my knowledge" - what else can you say these days) and asked specifically whether they would be ok with publication. IOW, I tried to back up myself as much as possible to avoid any conflict to begin with.  

As for other components, i.e. the Shell, it was part of the contract with H&P what will happen with the copyright after two years, and I'm still trying to ensure that those that can apply these patches have at least the 3.9 version - whether legit or not I cannot verify, of course.

This is pretty much why I said in the beginning - there is probably no problem if Cosmos would just communicate better and would have just *asked*. The worst thing that could possibly happen is a "No". But the current way of acting makes the situation actually worse, not better. It creates a diverse universe of some "almost but not quite" AmigaOs components with slight incompatibilities and no ensured "software contract" that everything fits together as it should.  

What I would really prefer would be a somewhat more coordinated activity, as in a project (let it be for paid or unpaid for developers) to create a framework where we can ensure that all components really work well together. That's currently not possible, and it's even less possible with people that cannot simply "play team". I'm trying to ensure that Olaf gets my updates, and that the functions for "layers" are in sync with AOS 4.x such that we don't create branches as far as possible.  

Yes, it means making compromises, and it requires a somewhat different development style - and a massively different communication style. If you observe my rather "rough tone" here then that's because I'm personally *p&ss@d" by the amount of unprofessionalism that rather *prevents* than *supports* any coordinated activity. It simply doesn't work like this. It is damaging AmigaOs rather than moving anything foreward.

There isn't much of any type of project management for the "old" classic systems, and it would be so badly needed. It's part of the lack of responsibility of the owners to take these systems serious, most likely based on a return-of-investment reasoning. If the community ever wants to be taken serious, namely that such an investment might possibly worth it, then we should act more professional as a group and not as a collection of freaks (not excluding myself here).

"What I would really prefer would be a somewhat more coordinated activity"

- well, yes it would be desired, but as you see it cant be achieved with a content none can ensure, whom it belongs to. because as soon as some entity appears out of nowhere and claims the rights to the material you are working on (you will likely not able to verify or contradict these claims, and you will have no money, motivation and patience to investigate it and enforce your position) you and your well coordinated project are a goner. you "tried to cover your back" "to the best of your knowledge", but chances are that your knowledge, even if certainly greater than mine, is not enough. and in that case everything that distinguishes you from cosmos here is your good will to play along the legal constraints, while a serious risk is that your actions can be any time questioned as illegal, exactly same as his.

amiga legacy is very uncertain contaminated ground, and apparently that cant be changed. so, if there is a major task for the comunity to unite upon (if it wants to ensure the seriousness and legality of what it is doing, that is) is to break free of this legacy while carrying over the concepts and making them openly available while ensuring this openness applying appropriate licenses. im sure you know what i am talking about.

[wawrzon]

Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post
Sorry, but I don't like that... I want a computer fully operational at power on... Final point !
Well, as already said, there are multiple CPU libraries out in the world, and they are pretty hardware and vendor dependent. Olaf already said this.

But anyhow. Here's a deal. I'm happy to provide my versions, and make them even ROM-able if you can get them to work on *all* hardware variants you get. This is, in fact, the major show-stopper of placing anything of this in ROM since it creates a kickstart that will no longer work on some boards.

aros 680x0.library has worked so far on everything i got. it isnt much but i have a choice of essential expansions here. the library isnt in rom, but setpatch loads automatically the necessary patches after hardware recognition. for me it is the closest to the one for all solution i see for amiga.

[wawrzon]

After that, I have the specific 040/060 code from P5 : I will use it, I know the authors will yell, but I cannot see any other solution...

you can look at aros68k 680x0.library, it actually must include support for both 040 and 060 for what i know. the sources for 060 libs are referenced outside amiga community afair. i dont remember where, but maybe somewhere with freescale.

[wawrzon]

ah, thor posted it too. so the 060 libs sources including well commented asm by freescale are here in aros source/arch/m68k-all/m680x0
which is to download here:
http://aros.sourceforge.net/de/download2.php

[wawrzon]

again, all this is a neat thing to hear and my opinion, that it should have been done, as well, but as we know it will never happen nor be a computable risk to invent work into, since there will never be a solution to guarantee a legal base for all these undertakings.

btw with aros(68k) layers implementation you can move windows off screen , no problem. the only limitation for this on unexpanded amigas without rtg card may be low chip ram at times.

[wawrzon]

@thor
and you are really sure that they are at all actually in a position and beyond that the only ones who can make legal claims about any work you might invest into amiga sources? have you been presented enough evidence to verify this?

besides the stubbornnes with which they have refused any support for amiga in the past doesnt make me think they might reconsider without actually losing the face and they know it.

also, they will want to apply the same market strategies to amiga they have been maintaining with os4, low volumes, high prices, no honest communication, when its done, two weeks, pay in advance and then we will see, half done and abandoned work on the way, broken or useless hardware of only limited capabilities.. all that kind of things. it all doesnt make me exactly wait to throw money at them just for them finally admitting people like me were right all along.

[wawrzon]

It doesnt matter if they have the evidence or not. Reality shows that about a week ago they allowed a remastered AmigaOS 3.1 kit to be sold, and no one had proof that they could legaly challenge that action (you can now buy this version at AmigaKit). And most importantly, if I am not wrong, I believe they still have a lawyer that doesnt charge a single penny, and is willing to go all the way (Ben Hermans).

I for one, dont care what happens to OS4. It is just another product, that I have tried, and I do not find it interesting all. But on the contrary, a new or recompiled OS for real Amigas sounds really tempting for me.

And most importantly, Hyperion is just like any other company, driven by profit. So if OS4 doesnt give them enough revenue, maybe a 68k AmigaOS might, and it is not a bad move, it is the way that business are (you choose the product you find its more profitable).

it depends on purpose. once they try to insist that they are viable commercial company. at other times they play poor or try to portray themselves as charity or act as community driven project. a true chameleon. all depends on purpose and context.

Hyperion may not be the company with the best rep out there to do this, but this is certainly better than having nothing at all (because that is what we have now).

i am opposite  opinion. im happy as long as that kind of companies stays away from amiga. look at what they did to os community and market over the years, now after it barely exists anymore the traditional amiga looks attractive out of the sudden. as example what is to be expected you can look at groundbreaking hardware proposals in the queue, do i need to be more specific?

And please, lets not talk about Aros on a real Amiga, because for the time being it is just a pain inflicting OS for our Miggies. Maybe that can change in the future, but not now.

i respect your work and opinion. i realize that without effort put into that it isnt a solution for an end user at this time, but it is a safe haven. now, things get done, as example: last week deadwood and phx worked together and got vasm so far that it is suitable to compile aros asm inlines, and aros source has been updated to be able to make use of it.
i just have realized is that one needs to get more involved if someone need something. i prefer to invest some time and work and try to learn something instead to invest money in uncertain projects.

[wawrzon]

AmigaOS 3.1 for 68k machines was not considered a viable product. There was nobody who could have developed it, provided support, documentation, etc. There was nobody who would have wanted to buy it in sufficient numbers to even sustain development, support, etc.

The situation seems to have changed by now. But given the twisted history of the Amiga as it happened in the last 20 years, it would still need capital and manpower to "resuscitate" AmigaOS 3.1 for 68k, which entails quite some risk.

how has the situation changed? os4 market has dried up and one needs to look for something else to ruin? and that needs to be founded yet?

If there is a genuine appetite for an updated AmigaOS 3.1 for the 68k platform ("classic", emulated or reborn in FPGA), it's up to you (well, not you personally: I mean everybody who would want to see such a project happening) to state what they want from it and let Hyperion know that there is sufficient demand for it.

We can swap stories and speculate all day on this forum. But nothing tangible will happen until you convince the people who can make it happen.

whoever is interested, me not. not after all the years.

[wawrzon]

No, I haven't. But I'm not a lawyer in first place, so you're probably expecting a bit much from my side. One way or another, if you attempt such a project, you want at least somebody at your side that can defend your position, and it has been shown that they can, all legal uncertainties aside. If you have other recommendations as for whom to approach for such a project and who could provide licenses - and more important - legal backup, I'm happy to hear them.  The sole purpose of a company is not keeping their face. The sole purpose is "making money". As soon as there is a chance for making a profit, they would be stupid not to take it. The problem is: Activities like this one - ripping Os components and publishing an "Os" - is showing the unwillingness of the community to invest money into any new Os, hence makes the whole project less likely, not more likely. I believe I said this before. The best you can do is probably setup a web page where you collect voices for such a project, and more specifically, how much individuals would be willing to invest.

It's a small market, so I don't think we can expect "bugdet prices". After all, some people also want to get paid, and rightfully so. The problem I have now is that they sell a "low end product" for "high end prices", and -even worse- a product I'm not at all interested in. At least a couple of factors would have to change: Better engagement in the community would help to lower prices by using man-power that is available for little money right here. And, from the side of the community: Respect for the legal constraints. There is certainly no market if some people believe that AmigaOs is essentially "free to take".  

As always, every story has two sides, and there are certainly matters that have to change at Hyperion, but the same goes for this community as well, this thread is exactly a demonstration this problem.

im not sure where anybody has proven to defend their position, as im not sure one needs associate like that so much if one can avoid it.

to be clear, im not going to try to convince anybody to prove that amiga is commercially viable, let alone to invest money in it up front. those in question need to evaluate their plans for themselves. ot has nothing t do with the attitude of particular individuals in the scene. people are fed up and are taking things in theor own hands, one way or another. whoever let it came to that can now blame himself.

[wawrzon]

@thor, olsen

i can understand you pretty well. you have invested considerable amount of work in something and dont want it to be in vain, i honour that. earlier i would have enthusiastically embraced your propositions, as lack of update and lack of universal kickstart was one of the first things i was considering a handicap for existing, inexperienced and especially new users and this is why i support unofficial boing bags but even more i support aros as potential solution.

in contrary to you i dont have confidence left in the entities you still seem to trust within limits. it may sound conservative, but im simply using logical induction, like in when you know the history you know the future. i dont expect someones behaviour to change even if he suddenly accepts opportunities there existence he denied for years. and as i consider the attitudes displayed so far very counter productive, i dont see it as option im interested in.

edit: also consider that agreements with said entities effectively rendered it impossible for people like you to contribute to alternative projects, that might be a more rewarding solution. whether it would be personally an option for you or not is another matter, but it is now remote beyond any choice. with this experience i would be very wary as to contibute again to projects these entities are involved with, as this is effectively draining and blocking off resources and expertise from the free community.

I thought the case against Amiga Inc concerning the rights on AmigaOs for development of Os 4.x should be known in the community.

well, here both sides of the conflict seem to be about to worth the counterpart. an actual proof of ability to defend ones standpoint would be to stand up against a serious threat, not just another pretender.

[wawrzon]

isnt that most flash equipped devices for amiga can accept 1mb roms? except deneb unfortunately (which though can hold kickstart modules additionally to 512kb kickstart itself), but individual computers aca series and the various geek forged flash rom kickstart solutions do afair. so its all old cheese, the problems have been long solved elsewhere.