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Author Topic: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?  (Read 22367 times)

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Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« on: July 16, 2008, 03:05:57 AM »
One thing came up to my mind when reading this thread: the original Amiga was a revolutionary machine. It was a combination of a hardware concept which was ahead of it's time, and a OS that was unseen on a personal computer back then.

Then, we can take a look at our options:

OS4 - Runs on A1 or PPC accelerator. (out of production - no hope for new machines)
MOS - Peg (out of production) or Efika (hobby board)
AROS - Commom PC (choose your maker)

We have two options which have either no new hardware to run or just a base board to do it. The last one runs on common PCs and have to compete against Win/Mac/Linux as an alternative.

So, we have OS' which are "upgrades" for the old Amiga OS to run on hardware with no advantages over commom PCs. OS is just half of the Amiga's formula.

The point is:  Being "Amiga" wouldn't be do it with the same goals that the original team did? Having a innovative OS running on innovative hardware to be ahead ?

Maybe it would be a good idea to think about a machine free from PC specs to be better/faster/cheaper running a OS free from the needs to be compatible with the original Amiga that has the Amiga-like features we would like to have (fast boot, small footprint, etc..).

This looks like a next step to me. Do what the Amiga did. :-)
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 05:31:17 PM »
Quote

Hans_ wrote:

... but the Efika is not actually in production.

Hans


Well, another dead end. I believe MOS people probably have support from Genesi to develop for their products, but wouldn´t it be a good idea to port it to PS3 ?

Some people raised the idea of Power Macs (as we always do) but they are out of production also.

PS3 is a powerful platform, it is in production and there are lots of reasons to buy it other than running a OS. There is also a nice installed base.

AROS or MOS in PS3 would rock :bow:
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 12:27:15 AM »
Quote

Hans_ wrote:

At least there are millions of Power Macs in existence. My vote would be for a PowerBook/iBook (the PowerPC version), as I would like an Amiga laptop. Both Amiga OS 4, and MorphOS (IIRC) have been shown with beta ports to PowerPC Mac hardware. So it's likely to happen.


Yes, but they are out of production. Don't take me bad, I would love to have an Apple "AmigaBook", but I think this development time would be better spent doing something to a machine we can buy new

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Any AOS4 on PS3 wouldn't? :-P

Hans


Yes !!! :-D  :-D But OS4 will not go further than A1, I believe. Unfortunately....
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 01:55:10 PM »
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Painkiller wrote:
Uhh I hate the so called modern OSs... Software developers just don't care anymore what they make, instead its quanity at the cost of usability. Many programs are way too heavy than what they should be and new hardware are used to make up for that... Back in the days of Amiga, software were created for the hardware not the other way around.

People just don't seem to care nowadays they just think that hey this is the way it should work when many things could be done a hundred times better...


I´m not a big fan of "modern" OS also. They cost 10 times more disk space than they should, and there are no reasons for that. And how I hate ctrl+alt+del and those blue screens.
Unfortunately, I´ve never tried Mac OS X, so I can´t have an oppinion about it. My Mac died before OS X release

@persia:

Moving to Intel would put the OS side by side with Linux, Win, OS X and all the obscure alternative OSs. It would be just another flavor of PC.
Besides this, there would be the nightmare of writing drivers for tons of different hardware. Linux guys have it, and there are tons of programmers writing stuff for it...
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 06:05:54 PM »
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bloodline wrote:


A "Modern" OS has to do a huge amount... the size of the source code can probably be measured in the Billions!

They might be using more space than they should, but that is a side effect of the evolutionary nature of features added to the system. Apple have recently released a beta of OSX 10.6 "Snow Leopard"... the aim of which is to slim the codebase down to just what is needed. But it will still be gigabytes in size, it will use a massive amount of disk space, because it has to do so much!


I still can´t see this huge amount to justify gigabytes of code. AROS itself is just some megs. Many Linux distros with a nice GUI and everything are also some Megs. Sure those gigs are not just filling disk space, but it seems that some people can do the same amount of work without the same burden.



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As opposed to now, where it is just another flavour of PC with a technologically dead CPU...


Now you are comparing a technology of the 90´s with today´s PCs. Would you say the same about PS3 or XBox ?
I´m not stating that keep with a 68K is better, but competing in the same hardware means it would need to be so much better than the other OS to have a real advantage. A hardware/software solution could provide some advantage

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Nightmare? Why not do as AROS and use generic drivers, most hardware will work... then if you have a specific driver you get better functionality... that's how all OSs deal with this problem.


Unfortunately, PC peripherals are not that generic. Old versions of AROS worked nice with my PC, bu the last ones do not recognize my graphics card. Ubuntu 7 stretches the image in my monitor (I need to try 8...). Win 98 works nice, XP too.
Not to mention generic chinese hardware that comes with an install CD

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It's relativly easy to build a machine for running Linux, do a quick search on the net, find out which hardware you can get a linux driver for and then buy that bit of hardware... simple.

And if you think about it that's like searching on the net to see which Motherboard you need to run MOS or OS4... and then if you want to run one of those OSs you buy the compaible board... simple... :idea:


Now, I agree with you. Find the hardware for the software you need is the solution.
I´ve never said MOS or OS4 have compatible hardware in each corner. I´ve just stated that hardware different than common PCs might be an advantage, considering that it might be more efficient.

Think about a race with common people running against Schumacher driving the same ordinary cars. They do not have a chance, but give a Viper to someone, and he would be king
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 06:13:43 PM »
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Manu wrote:

Eh? The OS is side by side all others already, it only
makes it 100 times worse to have it on an obscure platform.

Drivers is made today also aren't they ? It's better to develop drivers for hardware that EXISTS than first have
to find a harware manufacturer and THEN wait XX months for
their board to get ready and which anyway will cost many many times more and is much slower.


There are still some stuff that needs to be done to reach the others, and I know that it will be done at some point in time.

Slower means that you designed it slower. Efika is based in a SOC, for example. It is not state of the art, and wasn´t designed to be. You can´t ensure it will cost more. Perfomance and cost are design compromises that needs to be balanced. An EEE PC will not perform the same as a Quad Core, but it will not cost the same also
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 10:20:58 PM »
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persia wrote:


I have a Mac, I run OS X, XP, Gentoo Linux, one box, one screen, on keyboard.  Intel/AMD equipment is cheap, can you say that about Amiga equipment?  Stuff that you would throw out if it we're Amiga, and you pay 100s of dollarsfor it, where's the sense?  



PCs gets old too, as Painkiller said. I´m replacing mine, as it is 4 years old, and still uses DDR1 memories. It is better to buy a new mobo and keep my system up to date than pay more for old memory.

My mother still uses an old PC for internet, email, Office and basic stuff. It works, but is a throw away old hardware just like the Amiga, as you said. No hope for upgrade, she will have to spend money in a new machine.

I can´t say anything about new Amiga hardware being cheap or not, as it does not exists. But I can compare with Apple, for example. Here I can buy a really nice PC for the price of a normal Mac, and without some hacking, you need a Mac to run OS X

The race condition exists, of course. We want to see a new Amiga OS (AROS/MOS or OS4) because we are Amiga fans, and computer freaks. How would you convince a normal user to use  AROS instead of Windows, for example, even supposing all everyday app is available for it ?

It is hard to convince normal people to use even Linux. Apple has all the sex appeal and marketing, and Windows is almost a second name for computer today. Linux is free, and some new computers come with it to drop the price, and this is helping to gather more users.

So, why not PS3? If the main opposition to my "different hardware for advantage" is the "expensive and not available"  point, why ignore a US$500 supercomputer which still is a Blue Ray and have nice games?
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2008, 06:54:27 PM »
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amigadave wrote:

All I am trying to say is that backward compatibility is better for a transition to anything new.  Then after established with hundreds of new software applications and entertainment provided, then drop the old 80's and 90's compatibility.


I agree with you on that (BTW, I really liked your previous post  :-) ) .

Apple has shown the way: do a brand new system, and sandbox old stuff. The difference is that we have a 15 year technology gap from OS3.1, and I believe this might be an advantage.

Do a new system with E-UAE and everybody is happy (I hope...) :-D
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Next step for Amiga(like)OS?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 04:05:12 AM »
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uncharted wrote:

There needs to be a tighter integration than just having *UAE for it to really work.  If you took a look at how OS 9 compatibility was implemented you'd see that while there was a sand-boxed copy of OS9 launched in a window when it was needed, the actual software itself ran fully integrated with OS X.  It looked different, and had a different menubar at the top, but otherwise, it was another app.  There was no need to switch between OSes to use it.


Maybe I couldn't express myself the right way. What I was thinking about is do the same way Apple did

If it is an OS 3 program, the system could launch an emulator to run it without the user notice. Pretty much like  
Apple did when they moved from 68K to PPC.

The advantage is that modern processors are capable of emulating a fast Amiga. If you tried 68K apps on the early PPC Macs, you probably noticed they were not as fast as native 68K

Regarding AROS, I'm a big fan of it, and think it is such a great idea. I don't think Win/Linux with UAE are a good solution for a modern Amiga, because Windows and Linux are not what I expect from an OS to work with.