Amount of MorphOS copies sold

[HenryCase]

@hooligan

Morphzone is clearly a technical forum, we don't have silly threads whether to vote for pancakes or not. Certainly not suitable to use as a measurestick for any kind of guess how active MorphOS users are.

Oh sure, morphzone.org is full of productive threads, like a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000. Yes, you're all so superior...

@Duce
You're right.

[HenryCase]

So when takemehomegrandma is happy about this second place let him have the joy.

No, this is not the issue. I have no doubt that MorphOS is doing well (at least comparitively well). However, there's a big difference between a moderate amount of success and 'double all OS4 and AROS users combined'. It's the lazy analysis used to jump to such a conclusion that is jarring. Had the thread just been about the growth of MorphOS then there wouldn't have been any issues, the '2nd place' thing is fine.

[HenryCase]

Notice that the thread is at General Discussion which is exactly the correct place for this kind of blahblah-bs.

So what? There are 'General Discussion' type subforums on all popular Amiga forums. The point is, morphzone.org is no better in this regard than another single OS site, like amigans.net for example. So your claim that morphzone.org is somehow full of superior discussions is slightly dubious, it's very comparable to both AROS-Exec.org and Amigans.net.

Not a lot but I understand his point, I myself quite rarely download from Aminet, I use Grunch or developers homepage. Aminet is a valuable source for software though and wish it will continue as long as possible.

You understand TMHG's point, but I hope you also understand that it wasn't relevant. Olaf was using Aminet software uploads as a measure of the amount of new software available, not to measure downloads (which means the fact it's commonly downloaded elsewhere is irrelevant). By your own admission, there isn't much MorphOS software that isn't available from Aminet, so it seems a perfectly reasonable place to measure new software activity.

What's so wrong about that?

There's not much wrong with that thread, my point is that the content found at Morphzone is typical Amiga forum fare. Hooligan wanted to make out that you had a better quality of discussion than found elsewhere, I wished to point out that the same sort of bikeshedding found in other Amiga forums can be found at Morphzone too.

In fact, reading through that thread it's interesting that there is another prime example of your dodgy analytical skills, where you claim Amigakit funded production of the X1000, implying A-EON probably didn't have the finances to bankroll it, only to be corrected by Trevor Dickinson (who did fund the X1000 development) in the next post. Where you got this from, I do not know, but you do seem willing to make stuff without much factual basis.

Noticed you ignored my question before, guess you're still confused about how to answer?

Okay, if you've been listening, what do you think the main point I'm trying to make is? I'll give you a hint, it's nothing to do with forum visitors.

[HenryCase]

Do not put words into my mouth. I have never ever told the discussions are of better quality than elsewhere.

So this wasn't what you intended to imply with this then?

Morphzone is clearly a technical forum, we don't have silly threads whether to vote for pancakes or not.

My mistake then sorry, a languagebarrier or result of poor quick reading.

Fair enough, that's understandable.

[HenryCase]

@HenryCase

I meant the threads are usually only MorphOS related, not much about anything else. It was a surprise to find a thread about Sonys new monitor one morning, off topics like that does not occur very often.

I see. My apologies then. However, considering the original context, I understand where my confusion came from. I was comparing Morphzone to Amigans and Aros-Exec, all three of which are very much focused on their platforms of choice. It's only really on cross-platform sites like amiga.org and amigaworld.net that you get a higher percentage of inane topics.

[HenryCase]

I think you are onto something here, as I read the thread in question and thought it was pretty good.

Fine fine, maybe I was a little overly harsh about the X1000 thread. The main point I was trying to make wasn't about a single thread in particular, but rather that you can enjoy similar levels of debate across all the single Amiga-like OS forums. Is that something you agree with or disagree with?

[HenryCase]

Slagging off the X1000? You really don't spend much time reading our threads do you?

It was an exaggeration. I'd much prefer to stick to clarity, but when a simple message is being overlooked, you start looking at other ways to get your point across. I've already said I was overly harsh about that particular thread.

I'm not sure I like being characterized the way you have.

Do you know why I made that earlier statement? Please feel free to take a guess.

[HenryCase]

Actually, maybe I need to apologize because I really don't have to guess.

While some of us attempt to be reasonable even handed (AmigaDave comes to mind) there are a few who's immediate knee jerk reaction is to slam anything they don't favor.

But I believe these people are in the minority.

And I'm not sure MorphOS users are any more guilty then any other group.

Iggy, there's no need for you to apologise, I understood your reaction, and I understand your explanation. For the most part I enjoy talking with MorphOS fans, and admire what has been done with the OS. However, occasionally I come across attitudes that seem to come from groupthink/drinking too much of the Kool-Aid, and when I do it's hard to break down those walls with logic alone. I apologise if you thought I was bad mouthing MorphOS and MorphOS fans in general, that was certainly not my intention.

What I'd really want is to stop the pettiness, and find ways for each of us to help grow all Amiga and Amiga-like platforms, not waste time on vacuous statements like 'we've got more users' or 'our platform's better than yours'. At the end of the day, such statements don't improve the software, and only serve to antagonise others, so why do we bother?

However, for the pettiness to stop, there has to be mutual respect, which means elitist attitudes have to go. This applies to all camps. Hope you agree.

[HenryCase]

So why is there so much conflict?

I don't know man, your guess is as good as mine. My guess is that because all NG platforms are fairly similar, people pick up on the differences as a way to distance themselves from the other platforms, in order to justify the decision they've made on the platform they've chosen.

Frankly, I'm using two NG OS' now and wouldn't mind trying the third.
Its hard to believe that with such a small base of users we have this many choices.

I agree, I see it as a great sign of vitality in the Amiga scene, that despite our relatively small numbers we've got a disproportionate amount of choice when it comes to software, including operating systems. The diversity of choice is something to be celebrated.

[HenryCase]

@takemehomegrandma
If you find my behaviour strange, then you still haven't grasped why I am doing what I'm doing. Please at least TRY to answer the question below, as putting yourself in someone else's shoes should help you grasp what's going on...

Okay, if you've been listening, what do you think the main point I'm trying to make is? I'll give you a hint, it's nothing to do with forum visitors.

the best Amiga compatibility

I find this interesting that you bring this up as a quantifiable fact. As far as I know, there has been no in-depth study of 68k Amiga software compatibility (correct me if I'm wrong on that). What has been noted is that there are some pieces of 68k Amiga software that run on MorphOS that don't run on OS4. This is fine, but what you overlook is that the opposite is true also, there are some pieces of 68k software that run on OS4 that don't run on MorphOS, such as DPaint III, DPaint IV, PPaint, etc... There's some mentions of DPaint IV compatibility in this thread:
http://pfa.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=33140&forum=28&start=20&39

So what do you base this 'quantifiable fact' on? Is it just that MorphOS runs some software that OS4 doesn't, or do you have some better evidence than this?

[HenryCase]

@takemehomegrandma

But as soon as you do, there comes these "why all this negativity" people creeping again...

Let me be absolutely crystal clear here, my problem is not with other MorphOS users, my problem is with you. I have no beef with MorphOS, and if you'd been paying attention you would've seen this.

No, I don't think anyone have bothered with *a complete* Amiga Compatibility comparison

...and yet you pass it off as a 'quantifiable fact'. Do you even know what that term means? Let me break it down for you. 'Quantifiable' = expressable as a quantity, demonstratably measurable. 'Fact' = demonstrated to be true. So 'quantifiable fact' = something that has been demonstrated, through measurement, to be true. Do you understand now, or do I need to break this down even more simply?

By all means. Your view is that *even the thought* of MorphOS could be having a larger user base than OS4 is "more of wishful thinking than anything based in reality", it being "Extraordinary claims", obviously totally inconceivable to you.

Nice try, but no. My issue is not with the possibility that MorphOS may have a larger userbase, but rather with the quality of your analysis. You cherry pick the metrics you wish to look at, find ways to strengthen the figures for MorphOS and weaken the figures for OS4, and even with the weak quality of these derived stats then use them to make bold statements you can't truthfully back up.

So again, to be clear, I have no problem with the stats, but do I have a problem with how you're using them.

Let me explain another way. Let's look at this using an equation. Here's what you stated before that started our whole debate:

MorphOSusers = 2 x OS4users x AROSusers

Okay, so that's what you wish to prove is true. Let's start with what we've got. As we don't know the value of any of the variables, they have to be derived. Here's the derivation used for MorphOSusers:

MorphOSusers = MorphOSregistrations / 2

Next, for OS4 users, you chose to use Timberwolf downloads (ignoring the larger MOS-OWB downloads, but I digress):

OS4users = Timberwolfdloads / 2

Next, for AROS users, you didn't base this on anything, but for no good reason guessed '50', so:

AROSusers = 50

Now, for each of those derivations, how do you know how accurate they all are? You don't. There is no way to determine a measure of tolerance for the result accuracy, so they're all a guess. So what you really have is:

guess = 2 * guess * guess

Yet, with that guess, you've decided to make it a statement to compare the user bases. I don't know how clear I can make this, but THE REASON I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOU IS BECAUSE YOU'RE WILLING TO ARGUE THE BENEFITS ABOUT S**T YOU MADE UP!!

As for your other comments, I'm starting to get a feel how your mind is working. From my perspective, you don't think you're being antagonistic, you think you're doing your bit for platform advocacy, right? Platform advocacy in the sense of 'these are the facts, people deserve to be informed, once they are the facts will speak for themselves'. Am I right, is that what you think you're doing here?

If you are, then let me help you out. If you had kept these MorphOS registration stats purely about MorphOS growth, they would have been cause for celebration. In fact, they still are, despite your best efforts. Honesty is always going to be a more effective strategy than making things up to score extra points, so when you're doing your 'platform advocacy' bit again, stick the facts you can verify. Clear?

[HenryCase]

We have a fixed number of MorphOS registrations. This is number is not a guess at all.

The fixed number of registrations is not a guess, but the interpretation of how many users there are based on these registration numbers is. If you want to improve the accuracy of your information, follow my previous advice:
"go back to whomever handles the MorphOS registrations and ask them how many serial keys have been sent out through unique email addresses."

We also have a fixed number of Timberwolf downloads, no guess at all there either.

Yes, again we do have numbers of Timberwolf downloads. Again, the guess is in how these numbers are interpreted to find out something else.

coming with a possible result of solve the terrible browser situation on the OS4 platform

Terrible browser situation? What are you talking about! Do you even know what MUI-OWB is? I'll give you a clue, it's very similar to a browser you know on MorphOS. Are you now saying OWB is a bad browser?

And unlike what you are saying, this is *not* "guesses"

To use mathematical terms, what you can say is that MorphOS registrations are directly proportional to the number of MorphOS users. You can also say Timberwolf downloads are directly proportional to the number of OS4 users. However, to quantify the number of users, which you would need to do to make a direct comparison between OS4 users and MorphOS users (I'll leave AROS users out of this, as even you would probably admit 50 users was pure guesswork), you need to know the constant value that you multiply by to get the final value for users.

You've guessed 'divide by 2', that is the guess. You have no basis for choosing this number, it just 'feels' right to you. To get this number, you've used the assumptions that on average every MorphOS user has two MorphOS licenses, and you've also assumed that nearly every OS4 user has downloaded Timberwolf (twice).

I've already told you how you can improve the accuracy of the MorphOS user figures, so let's look at your OS4 assumptions. First of all, Timberwolf is still in beta and not all users want to mess with beta software, secondly not all OS4 users can run it, thirdly there is already a decent browser on OS4 that users have grown to like (MOS-OWB).

To give you another perspective, what are downloads for MPlayer on OS4 like? I'd say that's as good a gauge as Timberwolf downloads. According to OS4 Depot, the current version has been downloaded 1103 times:
http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=video/play/mplayer.lha

So why are there fewer downloads for the supposed 'holy grail' than for a media player? Perhaps Timberwolf downloads aren't as accurate a metric for total OS4 users as you'd like to make out, eh? Perhaps downloads aren't so useful a metric after all? Oh wait, I guess you'll blame this on reformatting, right, because that's such a common issue on the poorly coded OS4. :rolleyes:

As for your AROS user guess, let's not even go there, as you blatantly haven't got any chance of defending your analysis there.

With all that said, I hope you find time to understand this: I want MorphOS to do well. I benefit if MorphOS does well. If MorphOS does have double the number of users of OS4 and AROS combined, then find a way to prove it. If you can come up with better evidence, then I'll have to keep my mouth shut won't I? I never said it can't be true, all I'm getting you to do is hold yourself accountable to the stuff you say.

@jorkany
Obvious troll is obvious.

[HenryCase]

Of course MorphOS has more users.

But does it have 'double the users of OS4 and AROS combined'? That is what is being debated.

[HenryCase]

After long time analyzing this, thinking it through.. I have found the answer. The answer is.. "no-one knows". Hallelujah!

Exactly!!! That's the point I have been trying to make the whole time!!!

[HenryCase]

I know. Just wanted to shorten hundreds of posts into one line.

Thank you for doing so.

[HenryCase]

It is human nature to defend and justify the choices we make

Why do you feel your choices need defending? It's not human nature at all, it's all down to the individual. For example, I'm not a fan of Apple, and occassionally I get people saying I should get an iPhone. I don't feel insecure about choosing an N900, and I don't feel the need to defend my choice, beyond a simple 'my phone is right for me', or something along those lines.

Usually the people that shout loudest to defend their choices, are the ones that are most insecure. If you're truly happy with decision, then this 'defending' becomes largely unnecessary. Please note I'm not singling you out here, this is just a general observation.