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Author Topic: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all  (Read 30089 times)

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Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« on: October 26, 2007, 04:59:42 PM »
I think that adding a PPC to the minimig would be a deviation of the roadplan. But do not fear, I bet that AmigaOS 4 will be ported to the efika, efika2, sam440 and PowerPC macintosh. How can I be so sure? Because the only reason to release AmigaOS 4 for the amiga is to test Ainc, if they cannot prevent Hyperion from doing it they will sell it for the other platforms. Doing only a release for the few active PPC equipped amiga computers would provide little sales. But selling it for other platforms can bring a steady flow of cash. Then is also the posibility that support for it would be added to winuae. But a PPC powered minimig is not the roadmap IMO, coldfire is much better (and cheaper, the 5207 is less than $6 USD :-p )
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 05:23:46 PM »
Quote

JJ wrote:
I wish people would give up on the Idea of coldfire.  It just cant be made to work at a decent speed without re-compiling software for it.  If you are going to do that why bother, just port to X86

I am glad you ask, the answer is quite simple. To recompile a 68k native program for coldfire requires a minimum effort, while doing the same for a x86 platform is a quite painful endeavour. If you do not believe me look at the amount of aminet programs ported to work in the x86 AROS. But once AROS is backported to the 68k platform you can bet a coldfire version can be released with minimum effort; then emulating amiga games in a coldfire machine would become a lot easier and applications would run like a breeze.
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 09:17:45 PM »
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AeroMan wrote:
Quote

downix wrote:

The 68k I just priced was $24.94, the 200Mhz MCF547x.


MCF547x is a ColdFire. There are some differences. It is a optimized chip, but not 100% compatible.

We know, but if the XC3S400 in the minimig is substituted by a XC3S500E there is enough space to use a software 68k core. Then the PIC18LF252 might be substituted by the MCF547x, giving in the short run access to USB and ethernet and in the long run it could be enabled as the main cpu (when AROS is backported to the 68k amiga platform).
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 11:19:36 PM »
Quote

Paradox wrote:
EFIKA II with built in PowerVR.


I have no inside info source, but I can bet that next year when Freescale releases the coldfire v5 there will be a model with bult-in PowerVR graphics and some kind of ac97 or IHD audio codec.

Why can I be so sure? Because the market these chips is geared towards is the high end car market, that is the reason for the creation of the MPC5121e (inside the soon to be release Efika II) and it makes sense that they add such capabilities to their coldfire line of procesors.
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2007, 05:51:27 PM »
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Genesi rejected the idea of sending Jens Shoenfeld an Efika so he could produce his CloneA ECS-compatible graphics chips on a PCI card.

Since when do you have to ask permission to a company to create a PCI board for their computer? If they really wanted what would stop them from doing it? If they are not going to create a product just because genesi refused to give a free Efika to Individual computers then I think that is childish, specialy since for many months the Efika was available for $99 USD. If they wanted genesi to finance the creation of the card and they were not interested then individual computers has no right to say "bad genesi, bad genesi".
 

Offline little

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I have a dream ...
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 01:47:01 PM »
@MarkTime

I would agree with you if Ainc or any big computer manufacturer would come up with this projects. But if you look closely these come from little (dare I say tiny?)  companies or from the community. You have to start with something and with minimig and AROS you do not have to worry about stupid CEOs driving the platform towards a cliff. So you can dream for an ideal comeback or you can be part of these projects the community is building. If you think they amount to nothing, go tell that to linus torvalds if you dare :-P
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 04:29:49 PM »
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That's why I'm heavily for licenseable CPU architectures.

That sounds expensive :S One thing is certain, we need to focus in what can be achieved versus what might be cool/right/visionary but is not feasible in the near future to be done by the community. Yeah I know I should follow my own advice ^^;
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 05:16:08 PM »
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Doesn't seem much more expensive than the FPGA MiniMig to start with.

Oh, but there is "more than meets the eye". Using a non-standard 64 bit core in the minimig FPGA brings any immediate benefits?
------------------------------------------------
Lets break it down what sparc has to offer.

Pros

- Good CPU architecture
- Not compatible with 68k

Cons

- Non standard. Most programmers are not interested in learning another CPU architecture (most are familiar with one only).
- No simple retail option to implement a non-FPGA version.
- Low speeds (unless you get a very expensive FPGA or mass produce it, in which case it becomes expensive).
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Not lets see the freescale 68k

Pros

- Well known architecture, many programmers and hardware engineers are familiar with it. Software cores are highly feasible.
- Compatible with motorola 68k line.

Cons

- Expensive hardware. Only the 68000 is cheap, price increases quite a bit for later versions. I am speaking about retail prices, if somebody can get it used at a lower price or even free does not guarantee everybody can get those prices.
- Low speeds
------------------------------------------------
Now lets see coldfire

Pros

- Easy to implement architecture. Partially compatible with 68k, just better.
- Cheap
- Embedded. Some versions include usb, ethernet & pci right on the chip.

Cons.

- Low speeds. Higher than 68k, on par with geode but still less than current procesors.
------------------------------------------------
Now lets see PPC

Pros

- Well known architecture
- Cheap
- Embedded.

Cons

- Not compatible with 68k
- Low speeds. better than coldfire,but still far from current speeds.
------------------------------------------------
Now lets see x86

Pros

- Well known architecture
- Fast
- Cheap

Cons

- Not comatible with 68k
- Needs lots of external support chips.
 

Offline little

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Repeat this mantra: *focus*
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2007, 08:00:21 PM »
Quote

downix wrote:
Let's add one (feature about sparc), guaranteed source through licensing.  If you license the arch, no "cutting off at the knees" by vendor lockout

Now that you mention it, Coldfire CPUs have the same advantage since 2006

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mass production is not as expensive as it once was.

Yet mass producing the minimig and indepently mass producing a CPU would duplicate costs, which for a project such as this at this point in time (and the near future) is a big no-no.

[/quote]And the issue with all of the bottom ones is, vendor lockout.  Motorola unable to supply the chip?  You're up the creek.[/quote]
I think CPUs produced by freescale (except the ARM) are open to licensing, so I think what you really tried to say "Intel"

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Can't find a northbridge, up the creek

Let's then not forget some Coldfire and PPC CPUs have the northbridge and southbridge built into it.

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Intel doesn't supply you with docs fast enough, you are locked into older generations while your competition surges forward.

I do not think the minimig (be it v2, v3, etc.) will need to get the fastest intel cpus, as a matter of fact it is quite unlikely since Intel cpus are good for software emulation due to the high speeds they attain, but I do not think somebody has seriously thought they can be in the future part of the minimig.

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No solution is a perfect one, but I would sooner dedicate myself to being able to stand on our own two feet than being locked into some corporate overlords whim.

ATM the only CPU overlord is Intel, AMD is heavily wounded (I believe apple will buy them when the time is right), Motorola left the scene and created Freescale to make some a little profit and everybody else has hardly any market share.
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2007, 10:22:31 PM »
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So long as we make the jump to 64-bit, it's all good.

Slowdown, that is far away into the future.

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However, a 64-bit PowerPC CPU would make the transition easier as there's no emulator to write.

If you say so because AmigaOS 4 is to be released any minute now, think again. Hyperion cannot do any upgrades to the operative system and they are in litigation with Ainc and whoever becomes the winner might not support a community created amiga platform. I think we are better of with AROS, which is open source (like the minimig) and therefore there are no litigation hassles/company CEOs to worry about.

Quote
Forget buying PowerPC chips from Freescale; there are other vendors with better implementations.

The keyword is not better, the keyword is cheaper
 

Offline little

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IMHO
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2007, 01:11:56 AM »
I think a custom CPU core or an efficient but little know CPU are a dead end in itself. Either you are a trailblazer or a follower, you cannot be both. If the people in this project are so sure to make something so good they will set a trend, attract programmers and have long lasting weight in the market then go ahead. If the idea is to use what at this moment seems cutting edge from other companies remember it becomes old tech in six month old. Like in the example downmix gives, MIPS was the best choice at the time and Sony used it and made a trend because the PSX was a trailblazer. Nowadays MIPS is barely a memory and for quite some time sony has not used that architecture in anything new.
 

Offline little

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2007, 01:54:27 PM »
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A basic (SPARC CPU) entry-level can be had for less than $20

What about giving the name of this CPU so a real comparision between this and other CPUs in the same price level can be achieved?

BTW, The PSP is basically a scaled down version of the PS2, which was launched in 2000, in computer years that is a lifetime ago :-P