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Author Topic: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon  (Read 22029 times)

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Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« on: September 09, 2015, 09:41:03 PM »
IMO, the technical and Amiga understanding of the article author could have been better but it is not deliberately biased. Both the Amiga 1200 and Atari Falcon had bottlenecks in stock form but the Falcon had more processing performance while not being the easiest to take advantage of. The DSP is very difficult to use from a compiler but can be useful for offloading the CPU for some tasks, especially related to audio. The Amiga 1200 is really meant to be expanded. I'm surprised C= didn't remove the CPU and some logic from the motherboard and ship them all with a CPU card (of choice) to save a few dollars and add higher margin upscale models. The low clocked 68EC020 is really slow but was no doubt very cheap for C= at the time. No CPU data cache and slow (chip) memory is a very bad combination and one of the reasons why a simple fast memory expansion provides a huge performance gain.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2015, 06:16:38 AM »
Quote from: wawrzon;795368
as usual, within amiga subject, i cant really find a scratch in your reasoning..


C= produced the Amiga 4000CR (Cost Reduced) motherboard without a CPU to save a few dollars so why not the Amiga 1200? Maybe the majority of 1200 owners were using the CPU on the 1200 where few 4000 owners were? Maybe C= had an oversupply of 68EC020 processors they bought cheap and wanted to get rid of? My logic is good for not having much inside information ;).

Quote from: agami;795375
I've been fostering a hypothesis for a little while now that Commodore and Atari are actually one large bipolar schizophrenic company, Commotari

And when Amiga came along it made matters even worse; Both "Jekyll" and "Hyde" were in love with her.


Considering how many Amiga guys were originally Atari guys, it makes me wonder what would have happened if Atari had been able to create a better work environment and keep their talented employees. Amiga would have been an Atari product and would have benefited from a better dealer sales network and no competition from the Atari ST/Falcon. There probably would have been better games support but maybe less "computer" support and expansion (depending on how much freedom Jay Minor would have been given). The Atari ST/Falcon did get good computer support and expansion but how much of it was to compete with the Amiga? The other what if is if the original Amiga developers had been allowed to develop the Amiga as they wanted. C= failed to keep the original Amiga employee talent as well.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2015, 05:24:47 PM »
Quote from: agami;795388
Tale as old as time:

Hey you there, where did you learn to carve like that?
Here and there my Pharaoh.
You should totally come work on my pyramid. Onemhotep, bring this artisan with us.

Later...

Artisan! You're chiselling the story wrong! I want you to tell it like I did the whole thing by myself.
Artisan! You're using too much blue! Lapis doesn't grow on reeds you know.

Later...

Onemhotep! Have you seen the artisan lately?


Jay Minor was given freedom when creating the Amiga "game machine" and had the foresight to make it an expandable "computer". He would likely not have had as much freedom if he was working for Atari or C= where the Pharoh would likely have ruined his creativity. Creativity is only possible with freedom.

Quote from: OldB0y;795396
It matters little that the Falcon was slightly quicker, had better sound capabilities and a DSP.

When the A1200 cost £399 and the Falcon cost a whopping £999 when they launched in the UK.  Even if you add in a Blizzard 1230/50 + some fast RAM, and a small HDD, the A1200 would still have come out cheaper by a few quid.

So IMO, in terms of cost versus performance the A1200 is the better machine.


Good point. It's really cost/performance that matters.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2015, 09:39:33 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;795416
It was the other way round. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_4000#A4000-CR_version

The first Amiga 4000s were shipped without the cpu present on the motherboard but with a card in the cpu slot. They then started shipping them with the cpu on the motherboard and without the card, to save money on the cpu card.


Interesting, so the 4000CR with CPU would be cheaper for buyers wanting a 68EC030 but I would have thought the percentage wanting a higher end CPU would be growing and decreasing the advantage of adding an unused CPU on the motherboard. Many more people probably used the low end CPU in the 1200 than in the 4000 which probably explains why it is present. C= must have purchased these low clocked EC processors for dirt cheap. Too bad they didn't put a 68020/68030 socket with replaceable oscillator on both the 1200 and 4000 motherboard but that would have cost a few cents more.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2015, 08:32:37 PM »
Quote from: pyrre;795473
@gizmo350 and oldsmobile_Mike
I see. pretty much stuck with the 14mhz speeds then. :(

Stuck with 68EC020@14 MHz? Your sig says:

"Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2"

An Amiga 1200 motherboard would not be worth modding even if doubling the clock frequency of the 68EC020 was possible. The performance would still be bottle necked by the lack of data cache (which forces memory to be used directly without any cache for data) and slow chip memory (data accesses are not cached so the CPU waits for these slow memory accesses). If you are poor (it appears not from your sig) then add a fast memory card to a stock 1200. If you have enough money for more performance, a good 68030 (or FPGA) accelerator with fast memory could provide several times stock performance while maintaining excellent compatibility. A 68040-68060 would provide significantly more performance but some compatibility is lost compared to a 68020/68030.

@Oldsmobile_Mike
You beat me with the short answer. You must have had your coffee today ;).
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2015, 10:19:40 PM »
Quote from: pyrre;795481
Trolling.... WTF

Is it no longer possible to have any conversation with fellow amigans without getting flamed....?


Trolling was my first thought also. There is no next generation Amiga talk so I figured there was a logical explanation. I refrained from using the word troll but I still made a joke of the "inconsistency" :).
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2015, 11:39:33 PM »
Quote from: golem;795485
I would have loved a 56001 DSP on the A1200. I think they missed the boat in just sticking with Paula. And thats why the Atari produced numerous Cubase revisions.


I wanted the Amiga to have a DSP at one time also. As my understanding of processors has increased, I think the Amiga would have been, and would be, better off with more general purpose and flexible processors. A DSP would have offloaded the CPU for audio processing but, IMO, a faster or better CPU, fast memory and a larger Amiga custom chip audio buffer would have given us faster computers and better software today. The key difference is that a program can be compiled and instantly takes advantage of a faster CPU and better memory while doing the same with a DSP gives no advantage. Perhaps a DSP (and some Paula enhancements) would have attracted some professional audio enthusiasts and software developers back in the day. Perhaps there would be a few assembler coders trying to use the DSP today to do tricks like the Falcon DSP is used for. The Amiga received better high end software eventually because of high end 68k processors but then lost out because there were no more new 68k processors to take it higher and compete with faster processors. Today, a DSP would never be put in a general purpose computer as they are limited in what they can do and difficult to program. CPUs today generally have DSP like instructions, specialized hardware and/or an SIMD unit which is more flexible. Superscalar, multi-core, multi-threaded and other parallel processing also reduce any advantage a DSP would have. A DSP can still be cheaper and draw less power for consistent and repetitive tasks. FPGA hardware has replaced DSP processing in many cases. The FPGA code could sometimes be classified as a custom DSP processor. Much more processor customization is possible today with cheap FPGAs.

Quote from: pyrre;795486
The whole tread was about A1200 VS Falcon....
what is then wrong in airing some thoughts about the A1200 and what it could be capable about with minimum expense?


Nothing. It is not your fault we thought of trolls but the fault of all the trolls attacking in other threads. Our neural network minds are trained by repetition. I don't think Mike was accusing you of being a troll either.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2015, 03:44:48 PM »
Quote from: Kronos;796479

AmigaOS3.x on the other hand was pretty much state of the art when it came to consumer OSes and could hold it's water against Win3.x and only got left behind a few years later.


Windows 3.x was 16 bit and not even an OS yet (GUI for MS-DOS). Universal mouse support and drag and drop were new features. IMO, Windows didn't catch up until about Windows 2000. Windows may have looked better on paper by features before that where the AmigaOS 3.x was underrated because of lack of certain features but was more responsive, more flexible and more user friendly.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 09:55:01 PM »
Quote from: Linde;796531
That depends on what you mean by general purpose. A lot of home users use their computers for multimedia or games, and some have sound cards in their computers for this purpose, and these will usually contain a DSP. For example, if you had a Sound blaster from the late 90's or later you had a DSP in your computer, and some modern graphics cards have them. The Playstation 4 has one, although it's a quite a stretch to call that a general purpose computer.

A DSP on sound cards was more common before modern CPUs which have more processing power and DSP like functionality, especially SIMDs. There still is the possibility of off-loading the CPU but most audio processing only uses a few percent of a modern medium to high performance CPU's processing power. An SIMD often has more performance than a DSP albeit at a higher cost. Perhaps the PS4 is trying to save electricity as consoles need to be more power efficient and a DSP wins over an SIMD here. However, the PS4 likely has multiple SIMD units which could do more complex audio processing faster and the overall hardware cost could be reduced by a small amount. It would be interesting to hear why the PS4 engineers included the DSP. I wouldn't be surprised if it was because they used an existing off the shelf mature audio design which included a DSP. There are probably DSPs on motherboard integrated PC audio hardware for this reason. Newly designed general purpose computers are unlikely to get an off the shelf DSP like the Falcon or A3000+. Many people seem to still want a DSP when they would be much better off with a faster CPU and/or SIMD. That was my point even if my use of "never" was perhaps too harsh.

Quote from: Linde;796531
Of course, the very name "DSP" implies a non-general purpose, but practically speaking, sound and graphics processing should be covered.

A DSP can be used for some graphics processing and they are efficient but most are not particularly flexible or fast. An SIMD is a better choice for graphics as it is more powerful, more flexible and generally easier to program. We have modern graphics processors and hardware which are more powerful yet. Audio processing is mostly simpler, more repetitive and less processor intensive which is perfect for a DSP. Still, there are many reasons why a DSP processor chip would not be used in a completely new design.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2015, 01:13:20 AM »
Quote from: kovacm;796555
interesting topics: SIMD and DSP in modern days...

I read that AmigaOne X1000 have XMOS xCORE chip (and XMOS have some roots in Transputer era :)

is there any practical use of this chip or any demo that would show possibilities of xCORE?


Define practical. More processing power using extra processors can always be used but is it worthwhile? Weak processors with strong processors are generally not worth messing with for most programmers. Take the classic Amiga blitter for example, it is mostly unused on accelerated Amigas even though a few programs have used the blitter and fast CPU in parallel. Processors which are distant from the CPU like the Amiga blitter, a DSP, an xCORE or a GPU unit take a long time to setup as compared to a CPU co-processor like an SIMD, MMU or FPU. This is one of the reasons why DSP like instructions (ARM) and SIMDs are added to modern CPUs. OS software libraries can make it easier to use CPU external processors like the graphics.library does for the blitter but the use is generally narrow. Many weak processors can be used in parallel making them worthwhile. Some weak processors can offload I/O processing and have external hardware connections. The xCORE processors looks like they fit in this category but were not added for a particular purpose. I have only done basic reading about the xCore but it looks to me like a descent sized user usable FPGA would have been a better choice with more flexibility and processing power. The SAM Lattice FPGA is the right idea but it is too small for all but the simplest uses (GeekPort for embedded uses). Add a more popular FPGA big enough to handle retro chipsets and CPUs with open documentation and development tools and then you would have something retro and embedded markets would be attracted to.

Quote from: kovacm;796555

btw IBM Cell looks like DSP: SPE's has it's own memory, no cache...


There are some similarities including the difficulty of programming which is what has killed Cell. The theoretical peak processing power of Cell is very good if the code is perfect. The PPC processor in Cell also looks good on paper but it is bubblicious. Cell SPEs may use less electricity than SMP but the difficulty of coding killed it. Ease of programming and compiler construction keeps getting ignored for theoretical performance and processor simplification (compilers often can't handle the complexity as well as the hardware processor).
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2015, 07:41:49 PM »
Quote from: Bif;796571
As a guy who has done nothing but audio coding my whole career I can agree that being able to move everything off of DSPs and on to the high performance main CPUs that came along is a great thing, at least for us writing audio code. Auxiliary processors can box you in and are generally just a PITA to deal with. They are also often closed off, only presenting some high level API to interact with.

It's nice to have someone from the industry give their insights.

Quote from: Bif;796571
I might be cautious in saying the PS4 has a "DSP". It is not targeted for general purpose audio processing, the main CPU is what does all that. The "DSP" mostly deals with encoding and decoding. Is that a DSP, or is it just another auxiliary processor that is cost effective at that task? There might be some other DSPs on the machine I am unaware of, there are a number of them that perform various tasks, but none that synthesize the game audio like some might think.

Yes, the lines are blurred between what is and isn't a DSP processor. FPGAs can be programmed to handle repetitive little data processing tasks or an FPGA DSP processor can be used but stripped of any functionality it doesn't need (before the development FPGA become a hard chip). Specialized and customized processors are very efficient and much easier to create today.

Quote from: Bif;796571
I'm also not sure if you'd say the Cell is super DSP-like. Its instruction set is quite general purpose, but designed for modern SIMD computing (lean and mean). Its memory architecture is not at all general purpose, and more DSP like, I guess. It's interesting, to say the least.

The SPEs are probably more like modern GPU shading units (which have also become more general purpose) while they are all data stream processors. I wonder if the Cell SPEs could have been supported with OpenCL and an OS library for OpenCL. Sometimes how the hardware is offered and supported makes all the difference. An FPGA can also be configured as parallel OpenCL units and an opencl.library could support available GPU shading units, FPGA parallel processing units and/or the main CPU/FPU/SIMD for parallel tasks.

Quote from: Bif;796571
Relating this back to the Amiga I wouldn't actually mind if someone came out with a new sound card for it that had a bitchin' DSP-like processor on it. Given the Amiga tops out at 68060 you kind of need it if you want to do lots of crazy stuff. Either that or some of these new accelerators that could move us way past 060 performance, that would be even better.

A DSP on a sound card still makes some sense as the CPU can vary and is far away across a shared bus introducing the possibilities of unacceptable latencies. Fast modern buses and large buffers probably help but most customers aren't going to tolerate a sound card which glitches and pauses.

Too bad A-Eon didn't realize there was an audio and DSP expert on their forum. The Prisma Megamix could have become a real sound card ;).

Gunnar was playing with an SIMD unit for the Apollo 68k FPGA core. It is Altivec like but with some simple CISC 68k style addressing modes added and some memory alignment restrictions dropped which would make it much easier to use while remaining mostly compatible with Altivec at the instruction level. Integer support is fairly cheap to implement in an SIMD but floating point is expensive. My advise was to support the 68k FPU (like 68060 FPU but with a few enhancements) for compatibility and forget about trying to add an SIMD unit until there is room (and probably single precision FP support as well). As I have thought about it more recently though, I would like to explore adding 2x 16 bit operations in a 32 bit register to the 68k integer units. Encoding space is limited so I would leave out 4x 8 bit operations. RGBA type byte color component operations could still be done in 1 cycle with superscalar instruction interleaving and there was already support for a PERM instruction which could load bytes into registers in any byte order wanted. It would have been helpful to have someone with industry experience in audio processing as part of our group. Maybe Gunnar would have even listened to you but probably not. He creates these nice "teams" which work to pull in ideas and build a consensus and then he ignores the consensus and does everything his own way with little explanation. The technology is real though and 68060 performance is being surpassed in an affordable FPGA. Perhaps up to double the performance of the 68060 is possible in the next few years in an affordable FPGA but "way past 060 performance" would probably require an ASIC. An ASIC would probably be required to fit a good SIMD unit with single precision FP also.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 07:45:25 PM by matthey »
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2015, 10:41:28 PM »
Quote from: Pyromania;796658
I played with an Atari ST the other day. It hasn't aged well, it's pretty crappy!


I thought you might be trolling but then noticed you are a moderator. An original unexpanded 500, 1000 or 2000 isn't much better.

Quote from: Iggy;796659

Fact is, at least with games, it doesn't seem to perform much better than a Sega Genesis.


The Sega Genesis came out some 3 years later than the Atari ST with more powerful hardware (plus its a computer vs console). That would be almost as bad as comparing the Genesis to the Atari Falcon which came out several years after the Genesis. The Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon and Amiga 1000 vs Atari ST are much fairer comparisons.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Crappy comparison of Amiga 1200 vs Atari Falcon
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2015, 12:31:34 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;796664
There are some ok Atari ST games and some ST games were ported to the Amiga without making many changes. The top Amiga games were much better on the Amiga though (for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNGXuQKSjhI)


I was talking about the general utility of the Amiga 500, 1000 and 2000 systems and not just games. In their minimum configurations, they were bottled up so that the advantages of the custom chips and multitasking did not shine. Early AmigaOS 1.x wasn't that great either. Add fast memory, an HD and a newer version of AmigaOS and they start to shine. The Amiga definitely had more potential than the Atari ST but cost more too. Shadow of the Beast probably needs 1MB of memory and maybe a fat Agnus where most early Amigas came with 512kB and the old Agnus.