State of the Amiga, 2007

[Mallette]

I originally posted this in my request for help to preserve SimStation, my A4000 based simulation system.  However, I thought I'd bring it up as an independent thread as I remain interested in your thoughts.  There were few more dedicated Amigans than myself and I fought for a while to keep it alive.  However, as a professional trainer/developer I was forced to go with the flow.  Much of my success in the Windoze world has been related to my Amiga experience which lead me to expect much more that those with no experience with a true multi-tasking, stable OS with an advanced hardware architecture.  My query to you follows:

My brief survey of the remnants of the Amiga culture are rather confusing. On one side, it appears to have dried to a mere puddle with only the turtles, gators, and other diehard left. OTOH, Amiga, Inc. in late news seems to be poised to launch new hardware (how many times have I heard that since '96?). They also appear to be messing in their own very vulnerable bed with lawsuits. Then, MorphOS appears to be a partisan group at odds with the orthodox Amiga crowd, but with a solution that, at least on the surface, appears good and also would appear to advance the technology.

The above might be an analogy of the Middle East.

So, my friends, of what pursuasion are you?  Will ANYONE win?
Dave

[Mallette]

To the "beaten to death" crowd:
I hear you, and apologize for bringing up painful things.  However, I am one of you in many ways and have missed much of this in the past years.  Just wanted a sample of feelings.  Thanks for sharing.

Erno:  Not sure that is entirely true about being able to do anything the Amiga could.  I've searched diligently for an animation software REMOTELY as capable as DPaint and the closest I've found is ProMotion, which is an attempt to replicate as much of DPaint as Windoze can muster.  Even then, it is only a rather poor substitute...though superior to any other solution I've seen.  

I rather doubt I'll use the Ami for much more than DPaint, unless I am introduced to other software of which I am unaware.  But that will be enough.  Having that perpective tool, color cycling (even with have to export as GIF, yuk) and the ability to rapidly move through hundreds of frames at will is something I look forward to.  I am in the process of implementing on-demand interactive training for over 2,000 crew members involved in drilling all over the world, and such capability for rapid prototyping is essential.  

Dave

[Mallette]

stopthegap:
HOW TRUE!  I hate to think how many peecees I've spent thousands on over the past 15 years only to wind up in the garage.  I through out probably 10 last summer when I moved and the remains of many more...

Disgoosting...

[Mallette]

Honestly, friends, I had no intention of starting a shooting war here, especially a gut-busting, mother-loving OS war...  Probably should know better, as I go back in BBS systems to BITNET and beyond.  

Anyway, I see a lot of apples and oranges.  I'd no more compare GIMP/Photoshop to DPaint than a tray of fixer to a paint brush.  These things are COMPLIMENTARY, not competitive.  Now, how anyone could consider Photoshop's interface user friendly is beyond me.  I am still constantly amazed at how byzantine it can be.  Simple things like batch processing require incomprehensible steps.  I've been using it for YEARS and still cannot believe it at times.  Nonetheless, it does marvelous things in spite of itself.  

One of them is NOT animation.  Creating anims with Photoshop is like building glass houses with a hammer.  

Like others commenting here, I keep hearing some say "there are equal or better tools available."  However, either none are referenced or those that are not only not better, they are often not even of the same genre.  

Using ProMotion a while back, it suddenly occured to me that (unless you codeheads can explain otherwise) the only reason we cannot cycle indexed color in Windows is the lack of a DOS-level (yeah, I know, no DOS in Windows...right!) switch to activate it outside of software.  Is this correct?  Seems many too young to remember such things don't even understand what a powerful tool it was to have something that required little or no system resource to perform beautiful things.  Those 256 color cycle palettes in HAM-E could be mesmerizing!

Finally, switching gears but still related...
I recall in the early 80's while doing graduate work at UNT in Denton, Texas I'd go into the K-Mart and see a wondrous thing.  Cowboys with their familys passing by the Commordore 64 display and grabbing a 64, several software cartridges, and dropping them in the cart along with the beer, towels, and motor oil.  Even on their budget, it did not represent much of a stretch.  I thought the world of common computing for everyone was here.  

Amiga aside, even a 64 would provide the AVERAGE user with a machine capable of doing everything the average world citizen needs today in a stable, reliable, environment.  A 2007 64 would likely have the guts tucked under the 10 key in a cranny...  Problem? Drop it in the trash and get another out of the cupboard.  

Most of the discussion I've seen here, regardless of the position of the proponent or protagonist, do not recognize that we've essentially been frozen in time for going on 20 years.  Peripherals have advanced mightily, as have many other things, but AutoCAD runs no faster (sometimes slower) on my 3.8gHz behemoth than the AutoCAD (which did 90% of the same work) I first ran from dual floppy drives on a 10mHz XT at the National University of Singapore in 1985.  

That is truly sad, my friends.

The Amiga is dead, and I have INFINITELY more faith that Jesus will show up at the UN tomorrow than I have in its potential for resurrection with the mighty Satan firmly in control (no offense intended to anyone with these references).  OTOH, I am equally convinced no other machine is even close to being equal and I sometimes wish I'd never heard of it when I get a "We're sorry, Windows can't find its butt with both hands" message.

JMOH
 

[Mallette]

Doppie1200 wrote:
These days I use photoshop and I never looked back at Dpaint. Personal preference I guess. But really the amiga has no technology to offer anymore.

As for drilling? You mean oil drilling? I've seen a pretty impresive training tool for oil platform workers. But it is based on the playstation.

Erno:
Just noticed your reference to drilling.  I am just wrapping up Phase 1 (of 3) phases of a drilling simulator written in Opus (Rule Brittania!), an authoring language I am certain has Amiga roots somewhere.  It will be "best in class" when completed.  

In 1996 I completed Production Safety Systems Training which simulated the safety systems of an offshore platform.  It was coded in CanDo on the Amiga.  CanDo was a non-timeline based language of extraordinary flexibility that took full advantage of multi-threaded multi-tasking like nothing I've seen since.  The machine that brought me to this community was designed to run this application.  It was (to my knowledge) the first U.S. federally certified system for meeting a legal requirement for certification.  In fact, I re-wrote parts of the Code of Federal Regulations to account for interactive (average 12 hours to complete) as opposed to the "old" classroom hours (40) to meet the requirement.  The program cost 2.5 million at the time, but was so successful that Shell, Mobil, UNOCAL, Marathon, Pennzoil, and Chevron ponied up 500,000.00 each within a year to get a piece of it.  That paid for it.  Then, they wanted it ported to Windows.  I took a 500,000.00 contract to do this in 12 months.  I expected to make 150,000.00 or so as all the elements were there.  Little did I realize how incompetent Windows 95 was.  Simple things like independently controlled multiple sounds were not possible.  We had to pay some of Paul Allen's nerds 10,000.00 to write an API (later included in 95 SP2) to allow this.  And that was just one hurdle.  We completed it on time and it has been in continous use on Windows (at 350.00 per student) ever since, though nowhere nearly as smoothly as on its native Amiga platform.  

At the time my patron (ARCO) was sucked up by BP (who could care less about training) I was designing a VR version with Internet reporting to the government.  Would have been cool...3D monitor glasses so one could "walk" up and down stairs to access things.  Easy on the Amiga, but still very problematic and expensive on WinTel.  VR was something I expected to be ubiqitous within a decade...but has been moribund since those heady times.

'nough nostalgia.  I have an Aerial Work Platform simulator to complete.

[Mallette]

As you so eloquently put it, we are largely agreed.  

Few points:
DPaint/Photoshop - Again, I see these as complimentary.  Whether on the Amiga or anything else I never found ANY one stop software.  It takes the best of several packages to get the job done.  Problem is that the best functions of DPaint are not possible or not available in Photoshop, not simply under represented...and that is true in the inverse as well.  But my particular profession needs those DPaint functions.

As to AutoCAD, you compared the 10% I left out that did not exist at the time.  I did not then nor do I now use or require 3D functionality from AutoCAD.  Just 2D P&ID's.  The old XT chip and math copper handled the math just fine, though the screen redraws could be slow...but, of course, those were due to the graphics cards, not the CPU.  I still have a hundred or more large scale drawings done at that time and the only difference now is more colors and faster screen refreshes...and the awful Windows interface.

Finally, your wife's comment is germane.  The masses don't have a clue.  Windows is all they've ever known.  Most of my peers think I am rather eccentric for my well known hatred of Microsoft.  I try to keep my mouth shut, as I have NOTHING nice to say.  Occasionally someone says "Well, at least he brought conformity" and I must bite my tongue severely to avoid asking if they admire Hitler for the same reason...

Kind regards,
Dave

[Mallette]

Yeah, I regret the name of this thread...

I've reviewed a few threads and have learned a lot.  Perhaps the single most devisive bar I've ever had a couple in.  I was such an Amiga head it dang near killed me when when the S.S. Commodore hit (or was steered into) an iceberg well underway to winning the race.  I'd made a couple of hundred grand off it and was just getting started.  However, that was a LONG time ago now and I am comfortable that I can have a snort from time to time without being drawn into mainlining.  If the extreme left here REALLY believed what they say, the babblings of the dreamers wouldn't bother them or they'd just go away.  And the dreamers...well, they abide elsewhere anyway, don't they?  Why does anyone discuss advanced avionics with a happy lunatic?  Either you are not fully convinced they are insane, or short a few cards in your own deck.

Yeah, I guess it makes me sound as though I am "above all this."  I can certainly identify with almost everyone here, as I've been through denial, rage, hope, and acceptance.  Now, like Pooh, I simply AM.  

Forget the religious implications of this well-known quote, but consider the philosophical wisdom and its particular appropriateness here:

(Fill in your favorite diety or leave blank), grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference.

[Mallette]

llwrath:
Eloquent response, well written.  Only a few comments. (Editors Comment: That was before I went ballistic... :oops:)

I do not use AutoCAD anymore as it is far too expensive for the P&ID's, flowcharts, etc. I need.  I miss it, but Visio does the job and imports dwg file (sort of) when required.  I was a command line AutoCAD user and loved that, but things move on.

"But I don't really have a hatred for Microsoft or the modern PC. It's just a different evolution that's yielded some different things."

In spite of my claim to have accepted living in a computing world where advances in OS stopped 15 years ago, that statement stirs me.  Those "different things" are an archaic kernel still reliant on virtual memory in a world flooded with the real thing, dirt cheap.  It was an awful idea even when memory wasn't so cheap.  "You have to restart your computer for these changes to take effect.  Would you like to restart your computer now?"  But OF COURSE I WOULD, I LIVE to restart my computer.  See, you did it, brought out the hatred in my soul (deep breath, Credo in Latin in the brain for a moment).

"Of course, the counter-argument is always that no one is requesting these features because no one ever knew they once existed. Also a possibility. It's the only way I can fathom the 5 billion features in Word, yet no good Final Writer style dictionary/thesaurus."

You are on to something there.  The majority of computer users today have nothing to compare thier experiences with.  The big lie has triumphed in a way no novelist could possibly emulate.  People expect their machines to go south a couple of times a day, and to have to reboot after every little thing, and to have Microsoft constantly checking to see if they are "Genuine."  My God, I am a Texan and such assumptions about my honesty bring out the worst assumptions of the rest of the world about us.  This OS is designed to produce a constant revenue stream and force replacement as often as possible by either simply saying "that's 5 years old and we don't support it anymore" and changing things to where it just doesn't work, putting and endless SN that serves only to get separated from the disk that requires it and has no function other than to make it useless, or losing the disk such the SN you have is no good...

OK, I've probably worn out my welcome in three days here already.  I will try to behave.  About the only trolling (and I do NOT mean you, llwrath!) I am likely to succumb to is ANYTHING suggesting Windows has some useful feature.  I am a sucker for that, as I just demonstrated...  At least I minimized my greivance list.  The complete one requires more bandwidth than I have available.

Regards,
Dave

[Mallette]

Thank you sir.

I think I'll leave this thread on idle.  Frankly, I feel I've been give a bit of a pass by some of the old timers here and don't wish to push it.   :-D

I intend to hang around through the resurrection of the SimStation at least, and perhaps longer if I really put it to use.  While the Amiga puddle has shrunk over the years, this appears to be the place where the best (I still have an Amiga T-Shirt with "The Computer for the Best of Us" on it, if anyone remembers that...) have retreated.  

Maybe it's the place to leave a line in the water.  You never know, maybe the Amiga WILL rise again, and bats might fly outta my butt.  It could happen...  :-o

Regards to all,
Dave

[Mallette]

Hey...I got my first stripe!  :lol:

[Mallette]

"Nah the VM is actually a lot more clever than you give it credit for. What it's doing is using idle cycles to swap out data that may need to be swapped. This means that should an application need to be swapped out it's already written some or all of it to disk which like you said, is much slower than RAM."

Perhaps you missed the point.  There is absolute no need for the VM, period.  I don't want "clever" VM, I don't want VM at all.  Any computer that cannot simply be turned OFF is asking for trouble, and I've had my share.

Dave

[Mallette]

uncharted wrote:
@Persia

Why are you so hell-bent on finding things that the Amiga can't do?  We all know just how capable (or not) the Amiga is thank you very much.

persia wrote:

How would you make a Flash presentation?

Why would anyone want to make a presentation in Flash when there are far better options?

I am another rare bird these days who finds Flash far too limiting to be useful.

Aside from that it brings up a question I've been wondering about.  Does GigaMem or anything similar still exist for the Amiga?  I used it big time in the auld days with no problems.  Of course, things slowed down when you reached end of volatile memory and started out to disk, but that was not so important as the fact you could do it at all.  I remember you could have any program use only RAM, RAM + HDD, HDD, HDD + RAM.  Nothing like that has ever surfaced on the peecee.

Dave

[Mallette]

I don't mean what is now understood as "VM," which is neither virtual nor memory.  I mean VM, as in not distinguishable from RAM.  

GigaMem was totally transparent to the OS.  

[Mallette]

mrescher wrote:

Mallette wrote:
I don't mean what is now understood as "VM," which is neither virtual nor memory.  I mean VM, as in not distinguishable from RAM.  

GigaMem was totally transparent to the OS.  

Virtual Memory is memory that's any combination of memory physical, stored on disk etc. that's addressed as though it is all one piece of memory. Programs that run on the OS are not aware if they're being run in physical RAM or off disk.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but GigaMem was transparent to the OS as it was a method for implementing virtual memory in an operating system (AmigaOS) that didn't already support it.  What I'm saying is that I think existing virtual memory schemes will work better than GigaMem ever could because they do work at the OS level and because the OS is better at slicing up the memory pie than you or I will ever be.

The one thing that I don't think I've seen done as well as on the amiga is the Datatypes.  This was an excellent idea - wherein everything that used datatypes could suddenly load a JPEG by dropping in the JPEG datatype.
I want to know why haven't we seen this type of advance outside the Amiga?  I think a lot of the issues are caused by vendor lock in.

Imagine if Microsoft released the Word datatype, then you could use OpenOffice or whatever you like and it would automatically understand Microsoft's Word format.  You could then choose the application you want on its features, performance or interface instead of having to buy the only one that supports the format your document is in.

The datatypes really were a brilliant invention.  I bought an A4000 on ebay and, as a result of datatypes, it understands PNG - a format that wasn't standardised until after Commodore sold their last Amiga.  That's pretty cool.

Fully agree about datatypes.  File compatibility in an OS is FAR more important to me than a uniform GUI as imposed by Windows.  What a spreadsheet has to do with photo retouching eludes me...

Anyway, I can follow what you are saying about VM just fine, but can't tell if you ever used it.  Windows implementation of "VM" is, from what I can tell, in no way comparable.  When I say "transparent," I mean the only difference was speed.  I've had Windows run out of memory when there was gigabytes of HD space left untouched.  There was no limit on GigaMem except available drive space and the OS limitations, which I think were 1gb.  I suspect you could have run every program available to the Amiga simultaneously in a gig.  I certainly don't understand what you mean by Windows handling it better.  As I said, GigaMem worked PERFECTLY.  I do not ever recall being able to notice it at work except the drive starting to run flat out when it came into play.  The memory optimizers for Windows and such are poor comparisons, IMOH.  

Dave

[Mallette]

Well, I'd be the first to admit I am no expert on such things.  I know when they work and when they don't, why is a question for true High Nerds.  I am just a wannabe...

I am messing around with Ubuntu right to see if it is ready for prime time.  I was surprised to see it required a swap file.  I still do not understand why when RAM is dirt cheap.  You'd think they'd at least allow an option to use physical memory.  

I still say any OS that cannot be shut down with the power switch is an accident that WILL happen.

Dave