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Offline pyrre

Re: Any Raid Experts?
« on: June 24, 2010, 12:28:30 PM »
Quote from: trekiej;566867
I am planning to build a new computer and I wanted to get some advice on Raid5 and Raid 1+0.

Depending on your use of the computers storage.

RAID 0 Stripes multiple disks together, and such increasing capacity.
This is (in theory) the fastest raid setup.
No real limit to size. Apart from what your OS can address(close to 12TB on 32bit OS)
But there is absolutely NO SAFETY or fault tolerance. one disk dies, your entire raid dies, and the data stored on it as well.
(and believe me, restoring such data is EXPENSIVE)

RAID 1 Mirrors minimum two disk.
Write speed is quite slow. Read speeds are average.
Fault tolerance is one disk may die and data is still intact.
If more than two disks are mirrored, fault tolerance increases.
But capacity is limited to only one disk.

RAID 0+1 are combinations of striping and mirroring. Increased speeds and capacity.
And maintaining some degree of fault tolerance.
This setup is mostly limited to 4 disks. (more than 4 disks makes it VERY uneconomical)

RAID 5 same as RAID 0, but with certain advantages.
It needs at least 3 disks and it uses one disk for parity. Fault tolerance is one disk.
However if you are planing on running it with more than 10 disks consider RAID 6 instead.

RAID 6 same as RAID 5 but with two parity disks instead of only one.
Useless on raids with few disks. but becomes mandatory on large raids.
It will withstand a fault of two disks failing simultaneously.
Great when running a raid of 16 disks.

---------------------------------------------------

After doing some testing. (on PATA and SATA disks)
Raid 0 and 5 increases speeds significantly until four or five disks are reached. But are sometimes maxed out at two or tree disks.
RAID 0 is by far the fastest raid configuration. (but it has NO fault tolerance)

Speed is limited by:
Average seek time, disk cache, internal transfer speeds, bus speeds, controller cache, internal controller speeds....

By raiding two 220MB/sec SSD disks read speeds of 400 MB/sec can be achieved.
But don't expect miracles from ordinary disks. 150 - 200 MB/sec can be achieved...

----------------------------------------------------

To cut things short.
If you need speed and don't care about fault tolerances. RAID 0 is your thing.

If safety comes first, RAID 5 is recommended.

If you like me are completely paranoid by disk failure. Then RAID 6 is mandatory.
---------------------------------------------------
As for RAID 0/1/0+1 (mirroring). i don't see no real use...
Striping two disks and then mirroring them with two more disks... it just wastes one disk and it will only tolerate one disk failure. (unless both disks of the mirror or stripe fails at the same time.)

By using RAID 6 and the same four disks.
still only two of them will represent the available storage. But it will withstand a two disk failure. maximum safety.

-------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Adding a link to wikipedia article about RAID: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID
EDIT: Correcting some facts.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 12:45:10 PM by pyrre »
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Offline pyrre

Re: Any Raid Experts?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 12:07:28 AM »
Quote from: johnklos;567037
The best bang for the buck for multiple drives is to get a HighPoint eSATA RAID card. The 622 is a two eSATA port card that can use up to 10 drives, and the 644 or 2314 has four ports and can use up to 20. eSATA port multiplier enclosures are not horribly expensive. A Sans Digital five bay enclosure, for instance, is around $200 USD from NewEgg.
This description sounds like JBOD (just a bunch of disks) and is NOT in any way a raid. It is an array, yes. and will set any disk of any size into an array of ONE logic drive. However. if one disk fails... ALL data is lost...
i have tried it!!!
(linux and LVM may rescue your back...)
(unless you mount the drives as separate drives...)


Quote from:
RAID-0 (sic) shouldn't even be discussed. It's not RAID since R in RAID stands for redundant, and striping drives makes things less safe than keeping them on a single drive. (Is there such a thing as negative redundancy?)
Raid 0, or striping is performance wise the fastest setup.
It is good for, lets say. striping two disks as SYSTEM disks.
IF you are cautious about your placement of files you have no real loss if one drive fails.
Or you could set up multiple drives in raid 0, as a master drive for video editing. Recording the master to that drive before packing it and burning it to BD disks or moving it to your raid 5 for storage.
Raid 0 suits the needs of a fast drive to handle drive intensive operations.
And always remember to back up files.


Quote from:
The simplest RAID setup is simple mirroring. Most x86 motherboards support BIOS-based mirroring. I'm not sure whether Windows has software mirroring, but just about any Unix-like OS (BSD, OS X, GNU/Linux) has software-based mirroring. You can also buy hardware-based mirroring enclosures which appear as one drive to OSes which don't have support (such as AmigaDOS).
Yes and no... Striping two disks is as well easy. (unless safety if your goal) And gives a great speed increase.
However, i would stay clear of ANY motherboard raid controllers.
If you move to a new motherboard or it in worst case scenario fails...
You have no guaranties you will be able to restore your raid.
ALWAYS use separate controllers. They will also give a speed benefit since they remove disk operations from the CPU!
IMHO stay the hell clear of any software based raids. if you loose the raid table (which is very easy if your OS fails or crashes during write ops..) you loose the entire raid and all data stored.
I have tried it to


Quote from:
If you're worried about viruses, then that implies you're using Windows. There's nothing RAID can do that can save you from that. Your only option then is to maintain two copies of everything, which is what others have said above.
What about a anti virus software?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 12:08:32 AM by pyrre »
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Offline pyrre

Re: Any Raid Experts?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 12:17:55 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;567071
Thanks.
An Article I was reading said that the user should have Backup Storage in case of a raid failure.
It also said ( or another post ) that cost wise that Raid 1+0 was better than Raid5 on the second disk failure.
For a newbie, it looks like the Holy Grail, when it fails it becomes a Holy Cow. :)
The board I want to get has 6Gbs SATA. How can I push that to the limit?  
Do I need SSD's or many HD's?
Can a raid system beat the bloat? :)

I am not going to argue. but i would never use motherboard controllers for raid. especially if speed is an issue.
Dedicated controllers will remove a great deal of disk operation from the cpu.
And you have fall back, in case motherboard fails.

I have never had speed problems like piru og alexh explains when multiple computers access my server.
network has been the bottleneck then, even gigabit...
(for a HOME network!)

I would any day choose RAID 5 or 6 and a dedicated controller. My humble opinion though...
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Offline pyrre

Re: Any Raid Experts?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 01:24:23 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;567084
How about the Raid 1+0 or I hear it is also called Raid10.
|| = mirror
+ = stripe

[ a || a' ] + [ b || b' ] + [ c || c' ]
I do not think you have to replace the whole set if you loose one.
1.  I want to make win7 or win sever run faster.
2.  I want to make Linux run faster? (ubuntu, fedora, slackware )
3.  I want to edit movies with Blender.
4.  I want to edit moves with Sony Vegas Pro 9.
I plan to add a 1TB drive for back up.
Thanks.
Extra:

SATA
5 SATA 6 Gb/s ports by AMD® SB850
1 E-SATA port by AMD® SB850

RAID
SATA 1~5 support RAID 0/ 1/ 10/ 5 mode by AMD® SB850

RAID 1+0 10 or what ever.
[ a1 || a2 ] + [ b1 || b2 ] + [ c1 || c2 ] - Disks A1 and A2 are striped together as goes for B1/2 and C1/2.. array A is "master" and array B and C mirrors A. Adding more mirrors will NOT increase capacity.
(you can of course expand with A3, B3 and C3. increasing overall capacity. but consuming tree more disks.)

That setup consumes 6 disks, and will survive a up to two disk failure.
OTOH
RAID 6 requires a minimum of four disk and will use two disks for parity.
Hower it will survide up to two disk failure. And by merging more disks you will increase overall storage. And maintaining two disk failure.
Like i have said before. i see no real reason to use mirroring!

To run OS faster, stripe two SSD disks together on motherboard controller. And use ONLY system on that controller. My friend has reached read speeds of over 400MB/sec doing so!

As for speeds... on a private home network you will rarely use the max drive speeds.
I have raided 6 120gig PATA disks, alone they are slow as hell.. but in a raid they are lightning fast. And i never saw anything to evidence speed penalties.

If you want os to run faster.. buy yourself a hyperdrive V5!
Or even raid multiple hyperdrive 5... :D
http://www.hyperossystems.co.uk/
(but now we are getting seriously expensive!!!)
Or upgrade RAM or/and CPU....

Move editing: while working on files: RAID 0. For storing files: RAID 5 or 6... MHO
I use vegas video 4 (predecessor to sony vegas 9) whit a similar setup.. Disk speed was never an issue.. CPU AND RAM is!
Get a dual Xeon HT quad core 64gig ram and Nvidia Quadro... That will render movies a bit faster.

Backup is NEVER underestimated...
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Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
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Offline pyrre

Re: Any Raid Experts?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 09:58:24 PM »
Quote from: AJCopland;567367
This isn't exactly on topic but I use an SSD for my boot/OS/programs drive and a RAID1 array for my precious data/Steam/Games/Videos/Music/etc.

It works pretty well, although I'm using the Intel fake-raid.

The SSD was the best upgrade I've ever bought though, screw the RAID array, get an external HDD to backup to and grab yourself a _good_ SSD for your boot drive.

Hell if you can afford it go for one of these:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3788/oczs-revodrive-pcie-ssd-preview-an-affordable-pcie-ssd

:)

Andy

SSD drives are dying even faster than conventional HDDs...
no safety in using SSD drives. SSD gives grater speeds...
Only secure backup media i know are tapes or CD/DVD/BD....
(even they have a limited lifetime)
Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2.
Amiga 2000 (rev 4.0) Os 1.2/1.3
2088 bridgeboard, 2MB ram card, 2091 SCSI.
Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
Derringer 030, 32MBram, Buddha in sidecar, Indivision ECS.
Amiga CD32
Video decoder