Amiga Auction List Posted

[Ohno]

Please Fleecy, stop taking credit for things you have nothing to do with. At least have some respect for the ppl who have done it for you.

Well.. I can only speak as an "external developer based on a Tao dev kit". I think Amiga did a lot of things to bring us the PocketPacks. Our programs are filled with calls to Amiga-API's, our games are running as .ami-packages in an Amiga-Anywhere runtime and they've been put in the stores because of a deal with Microsoft which I myself would not have been able to make. I feel pretty comfortable with Fleecy saying Amiga Inc. is responsible for that, because they _ARE_.

Regards,

Onno

[Ohno]

with all respect, but we are talking about THE 2 or 3 pocketpacks yes? Games that are allready out for more than a year? So we are speaking of 8, at max 12 games?

Yes we are talking about these cards (there are 3, but I only care about the last two, since they are the first of a bunch). These games are not out for a year, most have been heavily adjusted in the mean time and they all run on a new AA-environment (based on intent1.3).

And yes.. we are CURRENTLY speaking of 8, max 12 games for now. But that's usually how it goes... you start by releasing a couple of games and after that, when successfull you work on the next bunch. These first cards are just a start, just like AOS4 is just a start in bringing AOS back up to modern standards. The fact that there are currently only 8-12 games released on gamecards doesn't mean these are the only games in existence. I can assure you there are more.

About the earning I can tell you that I haven't seen a single dime so far, which is understandable, since I haven't released anything so far. We are working on jami and Go for Goal though and would like to make some money on that in the future when they are finally done.

[Ohno]

@Wayne

Before the door hits you in the ass however, ask yourself this.... How many verifyable humiliating problems will Amiga Inc create for themselves before you stop the apparent hero worship long enough to admit that there are problems? Remember, admitting there is a problem is the first step on the road to recovery...

Why is everyone who opposes you or think differently than you an Amiga-worshipper? Yet if someone calls you a Pegasos worshipper you get insulted?
AmigaMonkey just pointed out that you are overly biased and he doesn't like they way you talk about Amiga. He prefers a civilized talk like people have on Amigaworld.net and the way it once was on Amiga.org.

I work on Amiga-Anywhere and I don't worship Amiga Inc., I think there were quite a few things they should have done differently, but even Fleecy himself says they made mistakes in the past. I do try to step in however when people are telling blatent lies or ridicule Amiga Inc. based on nothing (although they usually claim it to be based on facts).

And I personally don't see anything wrong with your avatar, love that movie. But I can imagine someone taking offence in ridiculing their way of life/their believes.

Regards,

Onno

[Ohno]

LEGALLY before Bill McEwen can pay any developer a single dime, he MUST pay off debts such as Bolton Peck and the long list of pending court cases. If any developer receives any sort of payment from Amiga Inc before said debts are settled, it is in violation of federal law.

Not so sure about that. Amiga Inc. is our distributor (as per our SDA) and only distributes our product. They take a cut of the sales-price and that is the money they make. It might be possible they need to pay of depts first with that part of the money (not sure of your legal system and not sure if there are any more depts either), but it seems very strange to me that other people's money should be used to pay of their distributors' depth.

Regards,

Onno

[Ohno]

but Amiga Inc has to settle the judgements against them before they can pay you a dime

Again.. they distribute our products for which we get paid, they only take a cut. That cut is all they are legally entitled to so it is the only part any depter can claim.

[imaginary world]
If you'd ask me to sell a home-cinema system for you and we agree I get 5% of the sales-price is I make the sale, that 5% is all depters would be able to take from me, although I have the full amount of money in my pocket after a sale. This is because most likely you can show the correct paperwork to prove that 95% of what I have in my pocket after that sale is legally yours. They cannot take your money to pay of my depts.
[/imaginary world - yes.. I'm deptless again ]

Just like the auctioners here legally had to allow items to be removed from the auction, since they are loans to Amiga Inc, deptors can not claim money that is legally someone else's money.

[Ohno]

And about the Peck-story: I don't have the facts (although I do know Amiga Inc's side of the story as well), but I have worked for a startup company in the past. I went months without pay as well.
Some people quit their jobs because of it, which is what you SHOULD do if you're not feeling comfortable with the situation. I stayed because I wanted to. I preferred the challenge over the paycheck at that time. In the end it didn't work out and the company did go bust.
Bummer... For every success there are hundreds of failures. You can take the risk to either win or loose in the end, or you can play it safe and find another job. Everyone has to decide for himself, but you must remember the choice is yours and so are the consequences of that choice.

I'm developing for Amiga-Anywhere.. why?
I love the platform and again I love the challenge. I have a full-time job next to it to get me a steady income so I don't even take a financial risk here, but I know people who do. And I can only admire them for it, they are following their dream just like the people at Amiga Inc. Following your dreams is usually not easy and can hold a great deal of risks. The people at Amiga Inc. put their life into creating their dream and all they hear is people bitching about it. I see Amiga Inc. people working all days, evenings and weekends, they are helpfull to the developers, they are bringing us a new OS a new platform and a way for bedroom programmers to get their stuff released again. For me they bring back fun to computing. Something I've sorely missed the last couple of years.

And what do they get for their sacrifice? A lot of people bitching about everything. Every word they say is misinterpreted and fired back at them. When they do decide to go silent they are attacked for being silent.
I do get worked up about that, because I respect people who take a risk to follow their dream. These are usually the kind of people who actually make a difference in the world if they succeed, but are never heard of again when they fail. And these kind of people, whether successfull or not ALL make mistakes along the way. That's part of life and part of being human. It's a learning experience.

It seems a lot of people are actually putting huge amounts of energy into finding things Amiga Inc. did wrong and then 'spread the truth'. How about giving these people a break? They want the same thing every true Amigan would want: Computing should be fun again.

Regards,

Onno

[Ohno]

I think most of the people wouldnt be bitter and angry with Amiga Inc if they were more open and honest with the public - specially comunity who was blindly waiting and beliving in their promises!!!

Yes, but I think most of the time (missed deadlines etc) they didn't think they were telling lies at that time. They indeed wanted things to move MUCH quicker. Don't you think they wanted to move forwards more than anyone?
A lot of bitterness is also inherited from the previous Amiga-companies making false promises etc.

As I and AI themselves said: mistakes were made and things they said might not have come true. Maybe they even did willingly misrepresent facts, not sure about that.
If they did I'm pretty sure it was because they wanted to succeed so badly. I haven't experienced a single company yet that hasn't, which doesn't make it right and sure as hell doesn't make me LIKE it. But fact is (and this indeed is a fact) that there are some people at Amiga Inc. who are working extremely hard to get things done. They want to succeed and they've put a lot on the line.
And all they see is people putting them down.

As I stated before, I am not an Amiga Worshipper, but I do like Amiga-Anywhere and would love to get an updated Amiga-OS. But I am interested in Pegasos as well and you shouldn't be surprised if I buy a Peg2 in time as well. It's all about having fun in computing again for me and my Amiga's provided fun for me back in the days. I want to get that fun back and so far it seems like it is getting there. It just takes time and I'm pretty sure the people behind MOS are working just as hard (and the people behind AROS for that matter). I'm glad there'll even be choice in the future. Competition is good in my humble opinion.

On one hand I SEE Amiga Inc. people working hard to get things done, I see the support I'm getting from them when needed and personally, as far as I can see, I don't think I've ever been lied to by any of them. On the other hand I see what people around here are saying about them.

These things are completely out of balance and it seems a lot of people are just having a go at Amiga Inc. for the sake of it.

That's just not right, they deserve a bit more respect for what they are doing or trying to do.

[Ohno]

I think if you ask any US lawyer they will agree with my opinion.

I'm not going to. My mind is already at peace (if it wasn't already).... besides.. it'll cost me a lot of money and he's gonna tell me exactly what you said, right?  :-D

[Ohno]

I'm sorry you can excuse Amiga Inc criminal actions with they are working towards a dream rift, I personally dont support a dream built on lies and framed with legal threats.

I clearly stated that I do not agree with everything they said or did in the past. Just like I don't agree with what a lot of other companies do/say. I was just pointing out that people are overreacting in their responses and are generally insulting the wrong people. It's just like someone who is mad at a company for faulty products and start shouting at the support-guy or helpdesk-employee.

And I'm not even going to respond to that 'dream built on lies'-remark, because it's too obvious that's generally not the thing people dream about. Not even those 'Evil' Amiga guys.


Regards,

Onno

[Ohno]

Since thats my lawyers opinion I would agree with that statement, thankfully I don't personally have to pay my lawyer though I do have to put up with her snoring

Cool... so we agree on something? Wow.. that doesn't happen a lot to me on Amiga.org these days  :-P

Bummer about you having to put up with the snoring... I take it she'll sue if you confront her about it?  :-)

[Ohno]

Looks like you're the one whose fallen prey to conspiracy thought. Amiga Inc is dying of self-inflicted wounds and most people here at least admit it.

Yes, but they are getting some 'help' as all people on the SDA-lists have already witnessed.

[Ohno]

No, I place the blame squarely on Bill McEwen and Fleecy "I like Sheep" Moss. I am pretty vocal about that, the lies just I have been present for have hurt the company terribly, and because of that the Amiga Community as a whole.

I personally don't see Fleecy as being responsible, but I can live with/understand your way of thinking. And there is no other way of seeing it than Bill McEwen being responsible in the end, simply by being the CEO.

But I wasn't just talking about you. I see people like Ray, Fleecy and several Amiga-Anywhere developers also being attacked for supporting the company that did all these 'nasty' things.

If that's the way to go you could just as well shoot each and every developer in the world, since they most likely all 'supported' a platform/OS from a company that lied, stole or acted immorally in one way or another at some point in time.

[Ohno]

I'm sorry. "You can't know the truth because you're not on some restricted list" is a bullshit excuse. Having to create secretive restrictive lists just to promote your own propoganda and call it truth is bullshit.

Ok. You're telling Zoltan he's wrong about his conspiracy theory based on your opinion. I'm saying I do not disagree with you completely but that there is also some truth to what Zoltan is saying and that it is based on stuff we've seen on - indeed- a secret list. So you are basing something on your personal opinion and I'm basing stuff on things you can't see. Seems equally 'trustable' to me. It's about just as good as your 'I've got real proof and I'll show it to everyone at some point in the future on some show that's yet to come, untill then you'll have to take my word for it because I really have the proof in my hands here, honest!'.

Thing is I do not agree with blaming everything on a conspiracy, just like you.
Amiga Inc. has a responsibility as well. But I've also seen at least some evidence of external involvement, just like Zoltan.

I can tell you that there are an awful lot of things being said on those lists which are simply not true

Yeah.. there's a lot of that going around everywhere these days it seems. But don't worry, this was quite convincing  :-P

[Ohno]

May I interpret this to mean that Amiga Inc. have made no concrete business deals and have had no concrete business strategy for just over a year?

No you may not.

Since they have not made any announcments... this is the most logical conclution (using your own reasoning) and one that most people here have drawn and is what we are all worried about, WRT Amiga Inc....

I don't even remember McEwen to announce the Microsoft deal, but it is a deal, which was made public somehow and which did get products into the store.
Why are you so keen on attacking people with the way they word stuff. I speak to Gabriel very frequently, since we're developing stuff together. He is one of the most sincere people I know and I have no reason to doubt whatever he is saying.

He has a lot of private discussions with Fleecy and knows a lot of what's going on at Amiga Inc. (a whole lot more than I do). I personally don't know what Amiga Inc. is doing behind the scenes of AOS4 and I never bothered to ask.  Gabriel probably did.

It is really getting ridicilous how much people here are trying to turn everything into information that suits themselves better.

[Ohno]

Oops... I seem to have hit a nerve, I must being closer...

Not really.

Which nicely answers your question, why do I ask difficult questions... No, I attack none, put simply, I want the Truth

If you were replying to me then again this is not what I said and another 'interpretation' of my words. That was just what I was asking you, why do you keep on twisting people's word to make it more to your liking? You twisted Gabriel's word into your own interpretation, which we simple proved wrong by pointing out a deal that has been made public.

I'm fed up of being lied to all the time. I want to know whats going on.

Then maybe you shouldn't be reading public forums. I haven't lied to you and I also said Gabriel was not lying. You are manipulating this discussion and are basically saying that both Gabriel and I are telling you lies.

The fact that you don't considder the M$ deal to be worthwhile doesn't make it any more true and is still valid for proving your 'interpretation' wrong. And after all.. you _were_ asking if you could interpret those words as meaning something they didn't. Don't get upset if the answer is not to your liking. The M$ deal is a big deal to us.

Regards,

Onno