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Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« on: March 27, 2015, 03:35:33 PM »
You can also get it from Indiego appstore with graphical client you can download from: http://www.indiego-gaming.com/marketplace

In appstore look it under category "emulation".

Price is 100 amicoins = 1 Euro.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 08:30:07 PM »
If you were quick, you could be having probably legal ROM image still.

I actually bought that from Indiego before this all happened.

It is bit of a question how does this legally work out now.

Basically I legally in good faith bought it from Indiego.
Indiego legally in good faith had bought license from DCE to sell it.
DCE on the other hand was selling something they werent allowed to.

This is one of the tricky cases legally, but basically i would imagine I basically have now a legal copy of the ROM image, and if Frank decides, he could ask DCE for damages from me having it. but not sure.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 11:04:47 PM »
@cgutjahr

Actually it is not that clear case.

To take example of car theft.

If you buy a car from your local cars dealer, and later point it is found out that the car you bought was actually stolen. If there was no reasonable reason for you to doubt it, you get to keep the car you bought (at least in most countries), and dispute is between the original owner and the theft, not between you and the original owner.

Similarly another case could be that for example GOG.com finds out that their Sierra games arent actually legally licensed. That the real owner suddenly appears and tells them that the deal they have about those games, was made with wrong company.

GOG would have to stop selling those sierra games unless they make a new deal with the real owner, but people who bought those games before, would (probably) still be having legal copies of it, despite that they were illegal in the first place, as there was no reason to doubt that GOG was selling real, legal copies of those games.

However, in this case because I was customer that became aware of the situation (although after already having bought it), and it wasnt after many a year, but quite instantly noticed, it is easy to reverse the situation (delete file) etc.

And because I couldnt easily enough find any contact info for Ralph Schmidt to ask him permission to keep that PPC ROM file, i deleted it.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2015, 08:43:46 AM »
@wawrzon

Most of time when i argue about legal matters, it is because i am interested in legal matters and find it fun. Not necessarily because the issue might have something to do with me directly (like this one had). Hence my main point wasnt to argue that my copy is (well, was) legal, but simply argue about legal matter.

I also find it beneficial for exercise to argue/think of these matters. As example this time since the matter happened to have something directly to do with me.

My first thought was the comparison with car theft, and i was thinking my copy was legal. Then i started thinking about the spirit behind these laws, of why were they put there in the first place etc. and i came to conclusion that Ralph Schmidt should have right to decide in this case wether i can keep it or not (after which i deleted it, since i couldnt contact him, and i decided that basically he had said no by forbidding the selling). At this point I was however still thinking that would this be in court, judge would rule in my favor of keeping the ROM. Although I doubt no sane mind would go to court for a case like this.

But after giving even more consideration, i actually came to conclusion that even Judge would rule for not letting me keep the ROM file without Ralphs permission.

For thing is, the principle behind (to my understand in most countries, but i could be wrong) getting to keep the stolen car, the idea is that people need to be able to trust official car dealer companies. That we cant demand regular people to find out if their newly bought car from car dealer shop is stolen, if all the papers etc. seem okay.

If there would happen lots of these cases, then people would be afraid of buying cars anymore in the end.

Naturally if stolen item is something unique. Say you in good faith thought you bought copy of Mona Lisa, and it appears it is actually the real one. You wouldnt get to keep it, but it would be returned to real owner.

Personally I think each car theft should be treated as their own case. For example, lets say you have a car you use for work. It gets stolen, you cant afford new one, and hence it becomes impossible for you to work. Suppose the legal buyer later on is then a millionaire who just buys that car to sit in his endless car garage. In my opinion, you should get the car back, and then millionaire would have the claim for money from the thief (or the seller).

Similarly, if it was stolen from same millionaire, and buyer is someone who used every last penny of his to buy it to be able to use it for his work. Once again, millionaire can afford it, that other guys livelihood depends on it. Hence I once again would think it is better that dispute is put between millionaire and theft, instead of the poor chap.

But another example of this principle, lets take example of you are selling Illegal copy of Madonnas newest Cd release.

You have sold it directly to 10 000 people in shops and markets. Then you are sued about it and have to withdraw it from market.

It is not realistic to think that you can contact all those 10 000 people who have already bought that CD from various sources. For example, someone bought it from shop with cash. There is no way to trace that one. Hence to my understanding law basically lets people keep those cds instead of forcing them to destroy it.

However, not we come to this ROM file case. This is different from that principle. Since by default, those who bought the ROM file, are so said actively using indiego, hence it is possible to inform them that ROM files are not legal after all, since they are all tracable through their user accounts.

Hence I would imagine that even a judges ruling would be that each one who bought rom files would need to delete them, as it is reasonably possible to arrange and there is no big harm for anyone.

And just to point out. That I wrote this long with all these examples only because I found it fun to write about legal matters. And also, that I am no lawyer, and this is one of the tricky cases in law, hence I am not sure it really would go like this, just to my understanding this is about the principle how it generally goes and basis for it, but it varies from country to country. Especially since, as i already mentioned, its a tricky case.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 07:47:15 AM »
I did a bit of a check, and seems I am mostly wrong about the law issue. It seems I had somewhere read example of an exception of the law and thought it was general.

It appears that in Finnish law there are two different titles for selling goods you dont own. One is the traditional stealing, and another one is that someone for example loaned you something and you sold it.

If you bought something that the guy had loaned, and there was no reason for you to know that seller didnt actually own it. Then you, the buyer, are for most part protected. Original owner still has right to get his thing back, but he must pay for you, the buyer, the price you paid for the seller. Then the original owner has right to ask that money back from the seller. By otherwords, Buyer in this case has no risk, he either gets to keep the goods, or gets the money back he paid. Original owner on the other hand has a risk of losing always. He always has a risk of not getting money back from the thief if thief if broke.

Although it most times seems to be elsewhere too that stolen car is returned to owner, here is one example of exception: http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162239

However, have to remember that that is just a forum, and who knows if those really know what they are talking about even.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 12:32:59 PM »
To answer some part of your questions, supposing i understood them right. Now I havent really digged into this, so this is somewhat a guess what i am saying next.

But if i understood right, Claim would go about following:

DCE bought phase 5:s rights for all the boards. Hence DCE is probably allowed to make more physical PPC boards, which i guess is unlikely they will do anymore due to it probably not making financial sense anymore.

However, part of those PPC boards, is the PPC ROM. And this PPC ROM however wasnt owned by phase5, but Phase5 only had license to use that PPC ROM on their physical boards. This right might, or might not have been moved to DCE.

The one they licensed that PPC ROM from, was Ralph Schmidt, and Schmidt is heavily involved with MorphOS, hence the thought of "moprhOS team" although in reality we are talking only of one individual. As example, If i would refuse something, it wouldnt be "Amiga users refuse", but just me.

So to correct some thought that you might have thought, supposing i read your message right.

MorphOS or MorphOS team itself doesnt have anything to do with preventing this PPC ROM being licensed. Only one individual who happens to be part of MorphOS team does.

Wether hes decision is based upon reason (fear of decreased sales of MorphOS and increase of competitor AOS4), or grudge from past, at least i havent seen stated.

In addition, if you own physical PPC board, and you take ROM image from it. Then as far as i have understood, that image should be legal, and right now seems to be only legal way to get that PPC ROM image to run AOS4 under emulation on your PC.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 01:51:59 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;786887
running os4 in emulation is illegal according to the os4 development lead person, it wont be supported, its only tolerated.


Do you have a link to this?

For as far as i have understood (but i havent really read), the point was that it is legal to emulate AOS4, but just that you wont get support for problems that might be because of emulation environment.

As example, if you have X1000, and there is some piece of hardware causing problem to AOS4, you can get support for it. But if there comes some problem under Emulation environment, then they wont help you.

I also wonder if it is actually even possible to legally forbid someone from using anything under emulation.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 05:41:19 PM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;786894

state in their software license agreement that users are only allowed to run their OS on specific hardware platforms.


So you mean that when you install AOS4 and there comes this "legal agreement" or what ever they call it there, there reads what you just quoted or they have said it elsewhere?

Im not saying that i dont believe they have said that, I am just curious if they did so. For it is quite strange move from them if they did. I do completely understand that they dont give support for emulation, since that is bit hard to control, but if they even forbid using AOS4 through emulation, then thats strange.

I am also asking this since at least from what Number6 put links to, they didnt say it wasnt allowed, they just said theres no support.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2015, 06:32:24 PM »
Interesting. I wonder how is AmigaOS was installed at time computer was bought is determined.

For example, If i buy a PC with one of the previous versions of Amikit that still required you to have AOS in it, then would that be a legit machine then? That did it have AOS installed in it at the time i bought the machine?

Also, I wonder if clause like that is actually legal. As example, can I sell you a car with condition that you only use it to travel between French and England?
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 07:07:51 PM »
@wawrzon.

What i left out from Eliyahus quote was "or which was especially prepared for running Amiga OS through the use of a dedicated flashrom or similar mechanism."

I would imagine amigaone computers would fall under this OR part.