Philosophical Question - Amiguing

[EDanaII]

Jumping in for a moment...

I, personally, believe that the Universe is entirely deterministic but in order to predict it, one must know all the variables. I also believe that knowing all the variables is virtually impossible, making the Universe, for all intents and purposes, random. Such is the conumdrum of our existance. Another conundrum is the dertministic vs. free will paradox, to which I usually say "who cares? Enjoy the ride!"

[EDanaII]

The ability to converse in abstract concepts, such as the above?

[EDanaII]

Well, I refuse to comment anything about religion, god, or soul... I prefer Einstein's true vision about it, but, about the "Who Cares", I would call it curiosity. I am actually enjoying the ride. And, maybe, the ride is even better when you go deeper and try to understand some key fundamentals of our existence.
Maybe the true ride can only be enjoyed by "Freigeist"

Well, just to be clear, I wasn't trying to be derisive when I said "who cares." I enjoy a good intellectual discussion as the next guy, but given the nature of this particular type of conversation, I have to conclude, what useful knowledge can be obtained from this? If the Universe is random, I still have to react to whatever it throws my way. If the Universe is determined, I still have to react to whatever it throws my way. Hence my conclusion: "might as well enjoy the ride."

[EDanaII]

A lot of animals have unique capabilities beyond those of humans. They may not be able to converse in abstract concept, but then again, who decided that that was such a remarkable ability? That's right, we did that ourselves. In a world guided by simple morals, we use those concepts that distinguish us from everyone else as an absolute measure of worth to rationalize our belief of superiority. This not only goes for animals, but for other cultures and human ethnicities as well.

Who said anything about superiority? Wasn't I. The person I was responding too made no such mention, nor did the person he was responding too. Special != Superior.

As to "remarkable abilities..." I find myself highly amused by your remarks on the subject...

[EDanaII]

Speaking as the person who introduced the point of abstract thought as an ability special only to humans with this statement:

The ability to converse in abstract concepts, such as the above?

I, personally, would welcome Koko, any other gorillas, elephants, dolphins and what have you to join in the conversation to the degree it is being discussed here.

[EDanaII]

As I've pointed out, it's a question of degree. As John has pointed out, where do you draw the line? The practical use of a tool as described might be a level of abstraction, but it's only one level removed from the practical.

Now, how many birds can understand the abstract concepts of logic gates and computer buses as a method of communication between devices designed to perform functions not found in the natural world? How many birds can understand the concept of a modem, or envision an array capable of arranging pixels that use photons against a photosensitive surface to display symbols that represent the phonemes emitted by a species to convey the very concepts we are discussing now?

Only one known species has this ability and it comes from their ability to abstract to a level that no other creature can.

For the first time in the history of life, a species now has the ability to not only understand itself, but the ability to control it's destiny unlike any before it.

If that ain't special, I don't know what is.

[EDanaII]

@ Linde:

If you are trying to prove a point here, rest assured that no one here has said that birds are able to deal with concepts on the same level of abstraction as humans. If this is meant to be an argument, you've built a serious straw man.

With this comment it becomes quite clear to me that you are unwilling to see anyone else's point of view but your own.

I point out it's all a question of degree to which you respond with a question. You then go on to ignore the actual example of the degree between people and other animals by pretending it's a straw man. You then return to your argument that, because some animals might abstract, man is no better than them. This is like saying that because baby can lift five pounds, Superman's no more special despite his ability to lift five million.

Clearly, you are one who doesn't like his world view challenged and I'm wasting my time. I can think of better ways to spend it. Ciao!


@ Thorham:

Calling yourself special is ridiculously arrogant.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.



So, a parent who thinks his child is special is somehow arrogant? How about retro-computer users? Is their believe in the specialness of their favorite computer automatically make them arrogant? How about Labrador Retrievers? I have 1.5 Labradors and I think they're special dogs. Does that automatically make me arrogant? I can think of plenty other things that might, but simply thinking something is special because it has value? Inconceivable!


@ At all who are arguing that Special somehow equals Superior.

There seems to be a meme here held by some that Special equates to Superior. This is an erroneous thought. I can certainly see how some might think so, as there are those who do think their superiority grants them license to do as they please. Certainly, the Nazis, KKK, even Kings & Politicians have thought such things, so such a believe is not wrong.

But it is erroneous to assume that such thinking always leads to freedom to do as one pleases. I tend think differently. I believe that the very thing that sets us apart from all other creatures on this planet obligates us to become caretakers of this world. The human brain is the most powerful computer on the planet, and with great power comes great responsibility.

For the first time on this planet, there exists a species that can fight back against the very same things that brought extinction to others. We already resist drought and famine much better than other species. We've conquered disease in a way that no other has. We may even be able to avert, or at least mitigate, the next big disaster, like an asteroid. The dinosaurs, quite literally, never had a chance.

Once again, if that ain't special, I don't know what is. If the rest of you only want to dwell on the negative aspects of man, that's your right. Just don't expect all of us to fall into that trap as I prefer to look at "both sides of the coin." I know man is capable of very great evil, but I also recognize that man is capable of very great good and the changes we've brought/will bring to this planet fall into both categories.

[EDanaII]

No, no, no, no! My best Fezzik quote would be:



I just want you to feel you’re doing well. I hate for people to die embarrassed.






@ Nicholas:

Somehow, I don't think that's just a Islamic doctrine. I suspect it's embraced by many. At least, I sure hope it is.


@ Thorham:

You know... I just wouldn't be the least bit surprised if all living things fancied themselves special. Somehow, I think it's an integral part of being.

[EDanaII]

Yep. Here we go again... assuming that man can only be a negative force... nothing ever changes.