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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2009, 11:00:18 PM »
Quote from: Trev;509237
Quote from: amigaksi;509236
How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio?  Sometimes you can't tell the difference.  You can't go by feeling; you have to look at it logically that it CAN make a difference.
Quote


MP3 sounds like crap, but not everyone can hear the distortion, and in fact, younger folks prefer MP3 to state of the art lossless codecs. Odd.



We really need to stop mixing terms. If Windows XP guaranteed that all operations completed within one year, it would be a real-time system, albeit a "slow" one. Neither Windows nor Amiga OS are real-time operating systems; however, both Amiga systems and modern PCs are capable of running real-time operating systems. Yes?


Re-read the post.  They are not real-time systems like the Amiga.  Any system can be declared to be real-time.  But PC is not as good as Amiga so don't equate them in regards to real-time operations.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2009, 11:04:28 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;509238
Do you see the relevance that you need to install dozens of custom classes with MUI, some applications refusing to work because you don't have version xx, etc...

Amiga needs to improve here.
...

No comparison between XP and AmigaDOS here.

>Still, there is no garanty it will work. Why do you think you needed to degrade your Amiga 1200 to play some older games ? Why do you think a lot of demos/games made for ECS are crashing or have garbage instead of sprites unless you patch them with WHDLoad ?

Because you don't understand OCS/ECS/AGA.

>Seems like it's not 100% compatible... What's bulcrap is you saying the contrary when the proof is there with the hundred (thousands ?) of OCS software that needs to be patch to work with AGA.

Go find the actual reasons and then reply; stop blurting out whatever comes on the top of your head.

>Amiga can't play 16bit sound anyway. Unless you add a soundcard, and use AHI which is far far far less prcecise than anything you could expect... Still it sounds a lot better than 14bit Paula audio, be it mp3 or linear uncompressed audio...

That's not the argument.

>You're arguing that you need to be able to poll joystick 1000 times a second, but you can live with 22khz... Come on ! :)

That's not the argument.  Do you read English?

>The point is that neither is a real-time OS. Amiga can be as responsive as you want, just use some apps that uses some CPU, and everything crawls...

Bullcrap.  Another PC fan just contradicted you in a previous post; only one can be right.

>What for ? And what is there to catch up ?

Post #275.  Sorry, I'm pointing this to you; they way you replied to this post, I hope you think before you reply.

>What I see is the Amiga is trying to catch up... thousand colours 5 years after it's mainstream everywhere... 3D after everyone... Games ported 3-4 years after they are released... CPU raw power behind...

You didn't even read the arguments.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2009, 07:30:22 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;509234
That hasn't quite answered the question. Does River Raid sample at 1kHz?


Don't have the source code to tell, but if I record the joystick data as fast as possible and do a "replay", the fact that the lower the recording rate the more off the replay is shows that sampling rate of joystick should be really high.  Take into account the fact that the actual joystick motion requires millisecond sampling since data reflects those times.  Here's data from River Raid (similar results for Vyper Amiga game).  I used river raid since it uses fixed patterns for intial levels so I can test Reply mode.  The following data will automatically finish Bridge 1 without dieing (first byte is joystick data where bit 0 = forward, bit 1 = back, bit 2 = left, bit 3 = right, bit 4 = trigger):

255 492.011992 ms
239 193.551497 ms
255 102.613160 ms
239 169.355474 ms
255 212.145701 ms
247 577.819620 ms
231 82.070541 ms
239 63.292001 ms
235 17.194553 ms
251 742.122450 ms
235 45.433999 ms
239 0.011948 ms
235 0.428292 ms
239 0.023143 ms
235 0.237284 ms
239 99.513307 ms
255 49.932682 ms
247 11.206606 ms
255 0.011948 ms
247 380.715926 ms
255 1.470111 ms
247 1.934836 ms
255 5.022607 ms
239 249.192435 ms
255 138.805327 ms
251 505.806763 ms
235 75.794901 ms
239 66.561437 ms
231 19.253496 ms
247 374.931845 ms
255 2.567959 ms
247 1.448165 ms
255 11.873767 ms
239 170.120274 ms
255 84.725221 ms
247 305.335075 ms
255 32.394828 ms
251 566.892716 ms
235 41.297094 ms
239 44.859821 ms
231 8.054205 ms
230 12.307901 ms
231 0.012093 ms
230 15.734817 ms
231 27.877147 ms
247 862.149214 ms
231 82.911276 ms
239 0.011960 ms
231 0.677802 ms
239 0.011827 ms
231 6.334053 ms
239 0.011827 ms
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235 350.176663 ms
251 421.029415 ms
255 38.664893 ms
239 5.328367 ms
231 0.045222 ms
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231 25.773636 ms
239 0.011960 ms
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239 0.011960 ms
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239 0.745502 ms
231 0.565145 ms
239 0.012093 ms
231 0.881712 ms
239 6.550044 ms
255 0.011827 ms
239 1.774851 ms
255 38.831827 ms
247 365.889257 ms
231 158.959145 ms
247 0.011948 ms
231 0.226255 ms
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239 102.764111 ms
235 49.886784 ms
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239 104.014240 ms
255 31.979304 ms
247 2.499194 ms
255 4.027175 ms
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255 0.012093 ms
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247 92.455577 ms
255 0.034039 ms
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255 0.226377 ms
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255 46.157965 ms
251 471.010511 ms
235 150.837494 ms
251 0.011948 ms
235 0.100697 ms
251 9.163358 ms
255 130.177054 ms
251 327.273709 ms
235 119.984878 ms
234 2.579386 ms
238 10.422133 ms
254 46.738007 ms
246 45.275178 ms
247 677.737134 ms
231 29.894558 ms
229 16.877754 ms
237 0.011948 ms
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237 0.012181 ms
229 9.991790 ms
237 0.802673 ms
239 37.390446 ms
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239 70.181079 ms
255 0.011948 ms
239 2.147802 ms
255 0.045488 ms
239 3.110892 ms
255 73.307278 ms
251 847.801656 ms
235 12.624313 ms
239 127.058847 ms
255 38.491718 ms
247 613.906313 ms
231 137.009327 ms
239 0.090433 ms
231 0.067434 ms
239 0.057459 ms
231 1.254785 ms
239 0.023143 ms
231 0.271600 ms
239 0.055996 ms
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239 0.045355 ms
231 0.011827 ms
239 8.286867 ms
255 0.012359 ms
239 0.271334 ms
255 0.011827 ms
239 0.417386 ms
255 386.192064 ms
247 19.196558 ms
231 200.935127 ms
239 0.011960 ms
231 4.377115 ms
239 0.350871 ms
231 0.033917 ms
239 0.044956 ms
231 0.045355 ms
239 0.090045 ms
231 0.147637 ms
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231 0.023143 ms
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231 0.611165 ms
239 36.892857 ms
255 0.012170 ms
239 1.503163 ms
255 0.011827 ms
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255 223.152276 ms
251 628.032148 ms
255 27.326333 ms
239 152.454201 ms
255 116.829695 ms
247 16.594029 ms
255 0.012093 ms
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255 0.391705 ms
247 316.154100 ms
231 2.488676 ms
239 0.350871 ms
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231 0.034183 ms
239 122.315963 ms
255 0.012303 ms
239 1.649737 ms
255 933.725144 ms
239 302.371610 ms
255 912.454647 ms
247 102.990222 ms
231 19.616083 ms
239 0.022866 ms
231 0.565278 ms
239 0.033917 ms
231 0.237550 ms
239 154.648544 ms
255 572.020930 ms
251 797.851018 ms
235 15.316622 ms
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255 253.714007 ms
247 63.774948 ms
231 109.837404 ms
239 0.011948 ms
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255 27.082000 ms
239 101.504284 ms
231 138.721920 ms
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235 27.367443 ms
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238 10.871141 ms
239 0.068110 ms
238 12.545063 ms
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230 3.800010 ms
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231 0.012314 ms
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239 14.822790 ms
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233 16.138769 ms
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233 57.981589 ms
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235 338.698723 ms
239 0.012226 ms
235 0.745901 ms
239 159.747752 ms
255 0.012824 ms
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255 209.284208 ms
247 709.275521 ms
255 0.012303 ms
247 0.643275 ms
255 0.068498 ms
247 0.022877 ms
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2009, 07:50:06 PM »
Quote from: Linde;509255
Oh, and every other Amiga program will do the same with libraries... Except that mostly I have to put them there manually. and they are oh-so-bloated! If anything, dynamically linked libraries retract from the "bloatedness".

...

If everyone shared them.  But they don't, there are several versions of each DLL and I have seen when they do use a common directory, they cause conflicts.

>Shorter maybe, but in that case, not by compression but by information reduction.

LOSSLESS compression means no loss in information.  That's what it uses unlike MPEG4.

>Oh, I am not speaking from any particular technical know-how, but as I said, using old ECS and OCS demos/games on an A1200 without WHDLoad or soft kicking will be a pain. Probably not so much the incompatibilities in the custom chips as because of incompatibilities in the different ROM revisions, RAM size and changes in clock speed.

Good, so we agree AGA/ECS/OCS are backward compatible and directly accessing OCS hardware registers works on all amigas.

>No, not boot block. If someone made a boot block demo for a particular PC model, they could make it work on every other machine of the same model, though, just as well as Amiga boot intros work for every computer of the same model.

You can't do a 1K demo on PC that uses audio card or the advanced features of VGA cards, etc. etc.  since OS first has to be loaded.  Amiga wins here in tight coding due to hardware level compatibility.

>I am surprised we are talking about boot block demos now though, since PC = Windows, apparently.

Not for me.  For me all OSes are the same since I just write kernel mode drivers.

>It can indeed make a difference, but the question is whether this difference is important enough for our perception to take into account.

I dumped the actual data of River Raid in another post.

>Also, you won't get away with 22 kHz if you want to be able to faithfully reproduce audible sound without loss of loads of audible information - that's only half the human hearing range, and a clearly perceptible difference, as opposed to the difference between reading the joystick 4 or 17 times per redraw.

When a human moves and when you redraw are unrelated.  

>And no, you still haven't shown me a game that benefits and uses 1 kHz joystick sampling, so the use case is still VERY artificial.

Bullcrap.  The more you sample the joystick, the more accurate the results.

>You sort of missed the point of analog joysticks then. They are not there to send unambiguous up/down/left/right information. They give you full and precise control over the axes, for example to control a crosshair or fine movement controls of a player. Did I mention that my joypads have a digital directional pad too, by the way?

If you read the same analog stick a few times, you will see that it returns different values (testing with gameport).  Thus, it's not as precise as you think and people usually people use range of values to do a particular thing so you already not using full range.

>I'm just reducing your argument to the absurd to show how little sense it makes...

You didn't even refute a SINGLE point.  Just claiming it's "absurd" doesn't make it that.

>Congratulations. What are you complaining about then? Is it particularly hard?

Your claim that people no longer use hardware directly.  They have less standard hardware, but they still use what little of it there is.

>How so? It is true, isn't it?

Amiga can do it in software whereas you want to use additional hardware.  That's not a good comparison.

>And ten minutes later the kid gave up and never touched the controller again? Doesn't sound real at all. How old was the kid?

No, I wanted some kids to play games-- and they preferred Amiga/Atari games over PC games since controls were simple.  They didn't have to think "which of the 10+ buttons do I press."  Given they are kids, I didn't want to teach them:

Eenie meenie minie moe
pick a button to shoot the foe
if it's wrong then let it go
next time try another to blow

>MP3 is instantaneous? What are you talking about?

Sorry, MP3 also appears same as uncompressed audio to most people as analog joystick appears instantaneous like digital joystick.  Yet one is better than the other.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2009, 07:59:07 PM »
Quote from: Trev;509259
Listen, one could write a simple real-time operating system that is source compatible (with a small HAL, of course) with both Amiga and IBM PC-compatible hardware. Both systems would perform identically within the domain of the real-time operating system because that's what the real-time operating system guarantees.
...

They are not identical.  Each real-time task has its own constraints.  With Amiga, given hardware level compatibility and exact timing using Copper, I can make real-time tasks with more precise timing constraints and right tighter code.  I am speaking in general that works for majority of PCs.  Yeah, you can make your specific PC do equivalent by adding customized hardware...

>No one disagrees that the joystick ports on the Amiga provide lower latency access to traditional digital joysticks; however, that doesn't make the Amiga "better."

It doesn't make the Amiga better, it makes it's joystick interface better.

>No human being can trigger a joystick at an input frequency of 1 kHz. (Something other than a human being might, but we're talking about human beings.) ...

Sorry, but joystick states can change-- I just dumped the data file from river raid in another message.

>EDIT: Just to be clear: "real-time" does not mean instantaneous.

I know what it is.  I made the floppy simulator which has a constraint of 2 micrseoconds (to get 500kbits/second).
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2009, 08:04:59 PM »
Quote from: koaftder;509285
spec sheet says 6 24bit channels in at 192KHz.


You use your audio card as a joystick?
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2009, 05:21:43 AM »
Quote from: shoggoth;509436
Dude, you've recorded contact bounce (which means that you actually need to sample multiple values, which in turn means you get much longer readings than the ones you discussed earlier).


Wrong.  When you move the joystick, left to right you go into a state of no-press for extremely small amount of time (sub millisecond); that's what you see there.  I only mentioned 1Khz; if you took that into account as relevant you would need much higher than 1Khz.  Your speculation that it's contact bounce is just that -- speculation.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2009, 05:23:35 AM »
Quote from: shoggoth;509446
Human reaction time is also worth taking into the equation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time

Reaction time from visual stimulus is actially in the 200ms range, which means polling the joystick every 20ms is more than adequate.


You are wrong.  Joystick goes through a lot more states than most games actually use.  It's like audio example I gave.  Your not proving anything by just make a blind assertion that it's switch bounce.  And the blind follow the blind...
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2009, 05:27:11 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;509419
"Better" is subjective. If a human being cannot access anywhere near the full potential of this port, and the PC offers more then enough overhead that it is still far quicker then a human beings maximum potential reaction time, then seriously... so what?
...

You have missed the point completely.  Amiga joystick is superior REGARDLESS how fast you sample it.  I was stating an example where you need 1Khz sampling.

>I can't run a hard drive or a printer or any other of the miriad of periferals available today off of an amiga's joystick port, but I can run one off of any modern PC's USB port.

We're not comparing which port is faster.  We're comparing which joystick interface is better.  

>And you still haven't shown a single game that actually uses more then a tiny fraction of this supposed superior ports capability.

If you sample at higher rates, you will capture more of the human reaction on the joystick than if you sample at lower rates.

>Untill you can show something that actually benefits by having this lower latency your whole argument is dead in the water.

You need to think about the joystick recorder dump file I posted.  It's not noise as someone as speculated.  But he's mislead others as well-- it's normal for him.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2009, 05:28:50 AM »
Quote from: paolone;509423
PCs aren't perfect but allow a wider range of options and a unmatched degree of customization. Most of the 'defects' you mentioned either depend on software, or are plain silly (there's NO "joystick port" on PCs you can compare the Amiga's ones to. And well, I'd suspect any EHCI controlled USB 2.0 port is quite more reliable and fast than ANY "1 KHz"-polling 9 pin joystick port, and in newest PCs there are a dozen available on the motherboard), while considering the Amiga "still superior" for these really marginal aspects cries for an urgent reality check.

The irony of life, is that in its glorious days, Amiga meant innovation. Now "innovation" is what is keeping the PC platform alive, even if there are cheaper and more reliable solutions for games - like nextgen consoles and so on - and sales are growing only for notebooks and netbooks. And people who once brought the flag of innovation, now prefer to close their eyes and appear as dumb with silly arguments like this 1-KHz fool and the evergreen faster boot-time. If you prefer, I can give you another: the Amiga keyboard had the left Ctrl button where mother IBM decided it should stay. Modern PCs placed it somewhere else: odd. :roflmao:


Go read post #275.  You are doing Chewbacca Defense.  You are trying to confuse people by misrepresenting the actual argument.  You don't have to do 1Khz sampling and still Amiga joystick interface is superior.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2009, 05:43:21 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;509470
Gratz!

I guess this means I'm going to have to really put my back in to posting more regularly again!

:laughing:


I think you should first figure out that "better" is NOT subjective before you post.  If it was subjective, you have nothing to argue against except to express your opinion.  Amiga is better than PC in all respects.  Now tell me it's subjective.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2009, 05:48:04 AM »
Quote from: koaftder;509442
Make sure to use single copper crystal wires, coated in platinum.

I wonder if amigaksi has ever seen what a button press looks like with an oscilloscope, or has ever had to deal with debouching. Years ago, when I first started playing around with microcontrollers, I had a simple little project I threw together, one of my first. Toggle an LED based on the state change from a pin. I'd press the button and it would randomally decide whether or not it was gonna stay lit. That drove me up the wall but I learned something. Contact switches are full of noise and ring like hell. Polling the crap out of a contact switch or tying one to an interrupt line is a waste of time. You take a sample and you move on. Even if a person could press a button 1,000 times a second, the noise floor would make it impossible to ascertain what really happened. This is one of the many reasons why people typically sample the joystick once per frame. You're not likely to have a legitimate state change in under 50ms. Sampling at higher rates just means you're picking up noise.

*edit* lol, you guys beat me to it!


He was lying (concocting things to confuse people) and you were biased enough to fall for it without any evidence.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2009, 05:54:00 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;509424
@amigaski

If you are going to pivot the crux of your argument around precision timing with this degree of anality, then I am forced point out that the argument that all amigas have exactly the same timing, expressed in units of time (as opposed to cycles), is not true. You have not factored manufacturing tolerances of the clock crystals, nor have you factored in nonlinear effects caused by slight differences in temperature and voltage.

No two clock crystals give exactly the same timing, they just aren't that good.


So sorry, you still can't grasp the simple file I wrote and rather opted to be mislead by some speculator who is already known to have mislead people.  When you press the fire button and let go and move the joystick, you can go through a few states of a joystick that require millisecond accuracy.  In fact, it can be less.  Now your bullcrap about two clock crystals not giving exactly the same timing is just that-- a separate argument and just bullcrap since the crystals only need to be as accurate as to produce the timing needed for the system and there are ways to insure they all have consistent timing.  Perhaps, you want to read up on how they actually get Coppers, CIAs, Audio Interrupts, etc. to get the same timing rather than blurting out some blind assertion to mislead people.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2009, 05:59:09 AM »
Quote from: meega;509454
Yeah... I did some reaction-time tests on a BBC micro when I was about 15 years old. These days they "red-flag" sprinters who respond to the gun in less than 0.1s, because it's counted as jumping the gun - but I was able to *average* about 0.08s, with lots of 0.04-0.06s, and that included making a decision as to which hand to use to press a key in response to a square appearing on either the left or right side of the screen. If you were less than 95% accurate on 100 tests then the whole caboodle was discarded - it assumed you were guessing.


We're talking about states of a joystick not just human reaction time.  As I explained already, joystick can go through multiple states when person hits it and presses/releases fire button.  When you sample at 60Hz or less, you are approximating.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2009, 11:37:24 AM »
Quote from: paolone;509509
Yes, but the issue here is: "who cares?".

Maybe you're the only one all over the world. Doesn't this suggest anything to you?


If you don't care about things where Amiga has an advantage, then what are you arguing about in this topic.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #74 from previous page: June 06, 2009, 11:41:52 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;509511
Temper, temper. Just mirroring your pedantry. Struck a nerve, did it?


No, you didn't answer the point.  What makes the timing consistent throughout ECS/AGA/OCS if crystals are so different as you claim?
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