Demos using a GFX mode please !

[lempkee]

This tread makes me sick!!! (sorry)

but last i checked , well i am not impressed, sure there is like 1 or 2 productions a year that is good (on ANY format)
but i cant say that doing em RTG only would do any real changes in where the scene is atm.

I have been to like 80 scene party's since 1989 and now they all are dead , atleast like how i remebered em to be .

Mekka is dead , TG,TP and ASM are dead (only gamers party's now (the last 3-4 years)

The small parties still have some spirit but they doesnt represent anything really, atleast if you look into the contributions.

Anyway why people use AGA (or used to...) is mainly because then the coder/group ALWAYS had fullcontroll unlike now where we get pc people who suddenly wants em to
run in WINUAE , sure i see this as a problem when we have os4 and has to use uae anyway BUT! the main thing here is "thats why i am keeping my classic".

Also i have seen comments about how all make em rtg now because of the 3d stuff, bleeeeh LOL guys , did you ever consider that its done ONLY because its actually coded
for both systems in 1 go?? , ie leaving out all HWbashing and implementing a 2 way system (ie first for AGA then do it for rtg also...)

We changed to RTG 1.5 years ago but we still do it all for AGA anyway and the engine supports RTG.

anyway my opinion is still "the scene is dead" , and now that mekka also is dead...well it couldnt die more...or ?

Sure i dont want it to die, the scene is really why i am still on amiga (well until 99), but since 1998 i have followed PC,AMIGA,C64 scene and
the last 3 years i havent been really impressed not on a single format (the really worst one is the PC scene).

I think the days of garage code is over ;(

anyway for scene stuff , well its damn hard to find all because 1. SCENE.org delete's AMIGA files  ,2. scene.org have CORRUPTED files , 3. Aminet seems to be a place where only WINNERS end up.
but there is still many ways to get the stuff , my advise to you all is to go to #Amigascne (yes written correctly) or #scene on efnet/ircnet (one of them networks...i always mix them)

and a final message here must go to all the great scene groups which still are alive and kicking: PROVE US WRONG and show us that the scene is not dead (if it aint, then i might come back aswell )

pps: i dont have a PC , and i dont like PC

[lempkee]

@kronos : wow great post dood, that is really the whole idea and i like ALL of the people in this post to READ kronos 's POST AGAIN! and AGAIN! as he has really UNDERSTOOD it,
Fixed plattforms/systems is the whole idea and thats why i am so booooored over the PC demos and such.

Anyway making a demo for a 800mzh system and to IMPRESS some one, how is that possible??
by good textures??? , who will set the standard??? , its been 8 years on pc now and i am not impressed.

kronos: glad you pointed that out and thats why i think scene demo's have become boring.

anyway to all who still thinks that an 800mzh demo can impress yo, well OK check all ppc demos at the amiga today, and please tell me which of theese that is impossible to do on a 68k system,
on top of all i have only seen 2 really fast ppc demos on amiga , the whole point why so few went ppc with their demos is basically because of this,
the p5 ppc's are really crap and infact only (MAX) 3 times faster than a 68k system, but i would also agree with you on that some of the ppc demos are really goodlooking and such, but thats
why i asked earlier...WHAT makes a good demo...GOOD code or good textures or high RES ?.

dooing demos on a system like A1 or pegasos still makes me like... WHAT?? , why did the scene start really.. , do any of you know?
custom chipsets is always fun to explore except for Playstation 2 and Gamecube (which is like driving a ferrari in norway)...

anyway coders on the new computers and consoles hasnt evolved if you ask me, it seems like its in general that the GFX artists (in 99% of the time this is the CODER)
are the one who shows off (with good textures).

anyway i am sick of 3d.... i want the 2d back

[lempkee]

@darkcoder: well what kronos wrote was dead right on! , and still i didnt mean that any other here was like wrong or right , its just that i have spent so much time in the scene and i see newcommers or generally unknown people baffling about the scene without a clue why or what and that soomewhat mixed it up with u guys (no offence intended)

anyway a demo made of plesaure or intro..well thats how it should be done , FOR FUN!.
but if you look back at it aswell, 3-4 years later... thats when you know if the product is good or not.

maybe i am just getting old and cant tolerate newschool, i have never said that i like newschool but i always told everyone that i am a REALLY oldschool guy in both productions and quality....

sure there is good stuff from time to time, but what makes it all good, now thats the big question...aint it?

anyway a 3d demo is a 3d demo, especially if its on a PC or on a ppc machine, unlimited cpu power ..well i cant see whats fun with making any stuff for it...

demo scene on pc is generally a 3d package and a converter tool and its allabout making the best scene , and run it in realtime (or fake it) as a demo/product.

and i dont see whats hard here, REALLY! and seriously i see this as a problem for all the coders around (including me)..


good textures and music doesnt make a demo, but i agree that MUSIC is very important (in 99% of the time the music is more important than the code) , but then again i am oldschool
and i may have taken the "WAY to Newskool" badly..., i loved the evolution that happened in 94, i loved the scene in 99...but after that....i can count the good products on 1 hand.
where music/design/code/layout (everything) is damn perfect and that i could show this to my grandmother and she would have said "very stylish stuff" (lol)

many of you guys probably doesnt shear my point of view but BEST PC DEMO EVER must be the BOMB demo from tp98 (state of mind) , some of the best demos on Classic amiga must be stuff like "nexus7,traffic,tint,goa,C.dreams,faktory(maybe the best designed production ever?) and so on...

anyway if making scene stuff makes you happy (ALL)  then please continue, as thats the whole idea about it  have fun and shear the delight and maybe someday win some compos if any compo's are still out there... (tg,TP,Mekka,Asm etc all gone) (atleast so it seems)


anyway it also seems that you guys thinks the scene is alive on all plattforms, well sorry to say...ITS NOT! , c64 has the handbrake on , the amiga fell in a gap , the atari was ressurected and the pc is just plain annoying to call it a scene.

just put your heads together and think of "what made the scene so good and bright back in the late 80's or until 93...compared to 94->99/y2k..

sorry for beeing so negative , i am just trying to prove out some "PoINTS"

good luck to all and please make more demos (i might return one day)

[lempkee]

@crumb:hmm thats exactly what i said , we made em all (after we made a new engine) for AGA and then the engine made sure of that the product worked in rtg.

and i guess u know that allready, i wasnt attacking the way of rtg in anyway, if it was upto me i would have redone all my former products to AGA/RTG or ECS/RTG , but since such stuff would require like 490 days just to find the damn source logic or "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING OF " lol feeling..
also sadly the rtg plattform itself has a few bad turns , like Mediator users have problems showing CGX and CGX have problems otherway around... , as the mediator (and OS4) doesnt use the old p96 direct code (which all CGX people belives (STILL) that it do...

anyway RTG and AGA products is a nessecity, ie if you make a AGA prod theese days then u must MAKE sure of that it works on RTG , or else a majority of people wont see it.
but people making RTG prods doesnt have the same prob with dooing aga support, as in most cases newbies dont even know how aga works and expecting people to make an engine for such.... thats dreaming, but then again... where is the newbies


good luck

[lempkee]

@mdhw2: thanx for pointing out that issue, and if you had bothered to read it all then you would understand why i said it, anyway i will give you a few hints

i was a c64 user from 1983->1995 , and i find the c64 still impressive (even with hw upgrades) , the whole point of the discussion is "WHY dO WE WANt DEMOS on A1 (more or less) or pc...
and as i wrote earlier, i havent seen 1 pc demo (which naturally require + 1ghz) in ages, and its all about making a 3d engine, and i dont find 3d impressive at all (except for maybe in games) (3dmark is a kinda good idea)
on top of all , AGA code wasnt impressive AT ALL if you ask me or any real coders from the oldschool times, in 94/5 it all started to look better (but then alot had left) , that was when 2d and 3d became a STYLE and the mission to make the most interesting 2d*3d demo
and back then it was impressive, anyone remebers TINT ? , i remeber that they showed the demo 7 times at TG96 (after it was said "best demo , etc) , if you look at it now....it looks dated but it still have the quality wich makes u want to watch it again.

Anyway i dont see any reason to make demos on pc or on A1 , because unlimited specs and there is nothing secret hiding except for general design, since 1995 pc have been mixed into amiga demo compo's , please tell me why amiga have mostly won or got very good rankings compared to the pc ones,
and the pc had specs that was double or tripple (or like now x20) and still the amiga ones win? , also they dont say if its AMIGA or PC , they quitted that a long way back.


@crumb: the P96 bug with elbox, its because of the changes (its not documented, it has to be seen to be understood) , anyway the p96 devkit (the orginal one) doesnt work on mediators etc, like Openscreentaglists etc , the problem u mentioned about little and big endian is not a prob as v4 and v5 have reversed colormodes.
        the main problem is actually opening the main screen , in other words "alot of cgx stuff doesnt work , like Adescent(wos),ADoom(wos),Amhuhn (any),Joyride(all),Alot of demos.....  i have heard uncomfirmed rumours that cgx v4.x have a fix for this + documented but i have looked everywhere and no one have given me a good answer, and i wont buy cgx4 mainly beause i cant use it.

[lempkee]

@dagon: Ok since you say it this way , please explain to me why the SCENE is dieing? , please tell me where you get the inspiration from? , have you been to a party the last 3 years (excluding MEKKA) ??..

Have you noticed that a gamer gets more money in the compo compared to the demo/intro ? , have you noticed that pixel compo is very underrated now?

anyway what you say about c64 vs AMIGA back in 88 , and yes this was a big discussion but thats why C64 and AMIGA was never in the same compo,
and besides the c64 was more a hit than the amiga (until 91) if you count the scene activity.

anyway i dont see any reason to be entusiastic and optimistic about any of this but if making demos makes you happy then please do so,
and since i am too oldskool means that i should just shut up and let the newbies or midskool have some fun,
but one last argument 9 productions on asm 02, 4 products on TP02 ,0 producs at mekka 03, 0 products etc from now on doesnt amaze me at all and ofcourse i wish that the scene will be back but i doubt it , unless its a small party like kindergarten/trasc (which is good parties, but its about friendship and not about making demos (in the same way as MEKKA atleast)

good luck to all who wants to continue, i might continue if i see a reason , but making demos for either pc or Amiga1 atm is to me....useless , i would rather do as i do now (developing games for em).

[lempkee]

@darkcoder and carls: i wasnt and still aint trying to attack any of you , just so thats said.
And as i wrote about how to do some good productions and the typical winners and stuff that is easy to remember, and thats why the amiga and c64 have been so
much more interesting that the pc contributions, as if you take a look into the pc scene for the last 8 years i can more or less gurantee you that its basically ALL over again the same stuff,
with better textures and maybe a better engine or a worser one (depending on the contributions) , and since i am like...anti pc doesnt help it either but when i am at parties (or was) then i always watched the demos/productions without knowing what format it was
and put my votes there, and only 1 demo from the pc area won my vote in all of theese parties and that was STATE OF MIND by bomb, but there is like 100 PC WILD DEMOS that i have liked and about 15-20 amiga ones so i am not saying the actual pc people sucks just that
its so damn easy to spot wheter its about to show of 3d or GOOD design and a allround good product.

@psycho , glad to see you around here and as i have said before , your (LOONIeS) mekka 2001 demo is still one of my fav demos, many ask me why but (and i know that not many share the same opnion (tbl shouldnt have won) but i guess its just that i like the style and
the final design and its more or less aimed at oldschool .. love it
(the 64kb intro (the castle) is nice also ofcourse but in another way

a final note is to them who said, instead of saying the scene is dead then you should sit down and do something yourself... obviously there is some people here who doesnt know who i(or team) am, lol :=)
anyway since i have put the scene behind me means in general that what we released the 3 last years was more or less funding based stuff for our future game dev and some unfinnished stuff that we finnished and released,
but i know we will release 1 new prod this year, but it will be "FUN" based, but then again thats only if there is a party to release it on (if no party then noone will check it out anyway and not be spread (like someone posted here earlier)

check our website for our old demos and intros and eventually when i have some more time (or any of us in the team) then there will be some news regarding the 2(3?) games we are working on.

PPS: the game dev is regarding AMIGA classic (+a1/ppc)/gba/ps2

http://www.push-ent.webhop.net

[lempkee]

@carls: ermm i forgot to say one thing to you , quake people (or gamers) at parties..well as you said it doesnt mean that the scene is dead just because of that.

my comment to you is then: What makes a good party? , have you ever been to a GOOD party? , many have asked me why i travel (light?) without computer (mostly) to party's, i always say the same "BECAUSE I like to talk and have a nice time with all the people, and not travel 600000 km just to sit infront of my monitor dooing the same stuff i would have done at home ,
and yes i admit that i have bringed my computer to party's like TG,TP,mekka and ASm but thats in general because i have unnfinished stuff to finnish and release or that i absolutely fear that i will bore myself to death (like at Tp2001,tg2001).

Real parties like mekka 98,99,2000,2001 is parties that i didnt need my computer there to have fun, but thats me anyway...

also a party trip is (always?) for me a vacation...

gamers at parties, well there is some horrible examples , they travel to another country just to hook up their pc (or amiga or whatever) just to play in network and play and play and play and in the end they didnt even notice that there actually was like 4000 people around em, and a good example from tp and TG is that in general the gamers get pissed over the bigscreen and the soundsystem and
in general hates beeing there and have no understanding of what and why such a party has such things.

but yes i know 1 thing, without gamers the scene would have been even smaller (atleast after 95->) as they are the basic funding for the actual partys (like TG,TP and asm), without them no such party would be alive.

so you can go all haywire on me just because i tell you this or you can face the fact , 30-40 sceners was present at Tp2001 , tg 2001 had MAYBE 5 (and max 40 people who sat at the place when the compo's was active) , on mekka there is like TOTAL silence when there was a compo (ie a real scene party (the only one?).
Tp2002 had actually less sceners than in 2001, and even worser contrbutions ....

anyway the gamers compo's have bigger prices also so my next compo will be in quake or something lol...naaah
(but the prices are enourmous....)

anyway i am not the money guy really, but many in our team is due to young age and no work.......

if there is a scene then i will return, without mekka i dont see myself going to any party's again.

pps: regarding the actual topic of the discussion, we made an engine that supported RTG , so when we do a production its always AGA but works also in rtg , for the ppc stuff there is not AGA (atleast not for the games...)

have fun

[lempkee]

@carls: Hackersnight,remedy,iceing?? hmm ihave forgot the other swede'ish partys, but i can share with u that i have visited them aswell

anyway yes its depressing to see the scene disolve like it has the last 4+ years, and thats why in general i left it back in 99, but i came back and helped some
and i kinda liked mekka2001 alot, but after that there has been nothing and since i know mostly all of the mekka people means that i also know why and what about the mekka,
i hope that a good party for SCENERS will come again but a good party aint much if it doesnt have the true sceners feeling + contributions that represent the scene,
back in the early days of mekka there wasnt exactly much groundbreaking demos at that party, and the reason for that is that the bigger parties (TP,TG etc) had better prices and was more known
to the people, that turned around and now (the last 5 years) mekka was the king, now its dead and no one else have stated anything about any scene ONLY party which can drag people from their livingroom to the
party place (except for smaller parties like Kindergarten and trasc but in general they are too small to get well known and get people froom all over the world? to join up.



also i must add that it seems there is like too many people here who doesnt like the amiga as much as me (ie they use pc,mac,linux etc... and say that aga sucks....its kinda opposite on what i think but i sheer the opinion about moving on to PPC and the a1 , but for that we need an OS and thats os4, my XE800 is due soon and os4
will change my life and dreams i hope

[lempkee]

@karlos a good idea, but 2d wont impress many anymore ;( , but for pure fun and entertainment (maybe a backtotheroots kinda demo which follows all from 1988->1995+ would atleast look good and pay alot of respect to people who was or still are in the scene...)

if anyone wants to make such a thing, then i think there has to be quite a few people up for it , its not a singleman's job and as we all know... the 2d world require alot of oldskoolers...

[lempkee]

@crumb: btw that capsule demo aint truecolor btw , but its a well designed demo .

@i am a boringperson: that trvial question u seem to be pumping, well in one way what ur saying is correct, but if u turn that upside down and face the fact that AMIGA = CUSTOM CHIPSET thats when what we discuss here makes sense,
anyway i would have loved to see AAA chipset in the A1 more than seeing a gforce 7 card in it, why u might ask...well easy!! BECAUSE ITS CUSTom CHIPSETS!1

i have a feeling that next u want the c64 guys to make RTG demos also, eh??

so infact i still prefer aga for demo making etc, but an engine that would allow it to work in rtg mode aswell (as all our last prods is), anyway AMIGA = AMIGA and not UAE or amithlon or what ever..., when OS4 is out then there is a new breed
and i have faith in it but i think it wont change much of our lives atleast for the next 10months (after its release) because the real amiga people (the productive ones) know too little atm.