One unified OS for the future?

[Blinx123]

There is already a unified OS! Its called windows!

We hipsters like to be special! The more obscure the better

Can this Windows thing run Apple Pages? What about the most recent MorphOS/Amiga OS 4.* software?
Is it compatible with my ARM/PPC hardware and my GNU/Linux drivers?

[Blinx123]

Just an idea but if people wanted to create a unified Amiga OS, perhaps it would be wise to start with something like NetBSD and lay out an Amiga esque userland on top of it.

That way, we'd have a kernel that could run on anything from 68k to x86_64. And at least for non-68k systems, running 68k applications wouldn't make much of a difference (they require emulation anyways).

[Blinx123]

@TeamBlackFox
Always interesting to read the posts of someone like minded.

Personally, I'd love to see Amiga going down the ARM road. It just makes sense, if you think about it.
ARM is inexpensive, quite powerful and can easily be adapted to something like an A1200 case.

I still have a Beaglebone Black lying around that I spent 50 euros on but haven't used since.
If I have time to spare over the holidays, I might give it a go, install a patched Linux (or perhaps something BSDish) on it and try and run E-UAE through the framebuffer.

[Blinx123]

ARM is a nice processor family, and  not outdated as PPC or 68K, but that doesn't change the problem. As soon as you're depending on non-standard hardware, prices will be high and products will be non-competative because you're operating in a very small market. Unless you see AmigaOs working on a smart phone or a tablet, but it's not exactly designed for that, neither the power management (which power management?) nor the user interface. So yes, it's a nice solution from an engineering perspective, but it won't fly either.

As far as I know, companies like TI actually build hardware to spec (i. e. they do contract work).
Even if they didn't, nothing wrong with choosing an existing board and providing a custom firmware.

The Amiga family ought to concentrate on software more than hardware. It's not in the interest of such a small community to concentrate on expensive, custom hardware.

[Blinx123]

What can ARM do what PPC cannot?

Not costing you an arm and a leg, for one.
On the other hand, it's also evolving far quicker than any other hardware platform.

If Amiga is to survive, what the community needs is inexpensive, extensible hardware with a low footprint. ARM can do that better than any other platform (including x86).

Inexpensive hardware is what made Amiga great in the first place, btw. Compared to similar offerings from Apple, an Amiga 500 wouldn't set you back all that much.

[Blinx123]

@Thomas Richter

I'm not applying 20 year old business logic.
I'm well aware of the fact that software sells hardware.

However, in order for there to be great software we need to cater to developers first.
Not many software devs are able or willing to create software for hardware that costs several thousand dollars and is pretty outdated.

You'll have much more luck finding devs willing to code on a sub-100 dollar platform that is well documented and that plenty of people (probably even more than x86, those days) know how to program for.

Again. I'll probably start a little project over the holidays. If anyone wants to join, PM me.

[Blinx123]

Pretty much. But if you want to attract developers, you should ideally pick a hardware platform the developer already has (x86) and a license model that attracts developers (open source). Many of the successful small platforms are successful with this strategy (Arduino comes to my mind). But this route isn't chosen. Instead, the folks still try to port the CBM model (closed source, custom hardware) to the 21st century, and that's not going to work. It's not going to work, regardless of whether the CPU is Arm or PPC. I don't have that at home, and I don't have experience with the hardware.

Huh? You do realize that Arduino is pretty much a good example of the the kind of platform/business model we (TeamBlackFox and I) are talking about, right?

The beauty of ARM is also compatibility. Whereas an Amiga NG OS on x86 would require porting thousands of device drivers for all sorts of hardware, there aren't anywhere near that much different components in the ARM world.


@zylesea
Can you get an i5/i7 for 50 bucks (board included)?
Unless you can build an OS that is better, more stable and more compatible than anything else out there, people won't even bother to create another partition on their HDD.

The x86 market is simply too crowded. Everyone and his dog is pushing his distro. A hobbyist market simply doesn't stand much of a chance on there. Certainly not as much as on cheap hardware even people in developing countries can afford.

[Blinx123]

Not 50 bucks, but serious computing power for still not that much money. At least that's what *I* want. My G4 systems are okay, but I would very much welcome another performance step (like from 68k to ppc). From current available ppc to i7 that would be such a leap forward.

And it's not about ruling the world. As it is with MorphOS today this micro ecosystem is doing surprisingly well. I doubt the user number would decrease that much when more powerful hardware would be available. It's not about challenging Windows or OS X. It's not about millions of users, but a few thousand.
And it wouldn#t be just another "pushed distro" as the usually pushed distro is just another Linux which wouldn't be the case for MorphOS x64.

I didn't say anything about ruling the world. But the fact of the matter is: it's easier to get (computer iliterate) people to spend 80-100 bucks on a small machine than it is to convince them to partition or possibly reformat their existing computer HDD.

[Blinx123]

@Thomas Richter
My whole arguments rests on two simple facts.

1. Given the choice, the common consumer rather buys another cheap piece of hardware (adding additional value to his household. Like hooking it up to another TV, placing it in the child's room, etc) than screw with an existing computer. This is particularly true for sub-100 USD products

2. x86 as a platform has plenty of user friendly OS' people can rely on. ARM users don't have as much choice, in that regard.

[Blinx123]

@wawrzon

If by "file structure" you're referring to the Linux file system hierarchy: It can be worked around (and in fact has been in the past. By the LinuxStep project).

Possibly the easiest solution is doing what Apple did inside Mac OS X. Adding symbolic links and hiding part of the hierarchy.

[Blinx123]

4Gb is a huge amount of memory and should be enough for any conceivable purpose, if the OS and application aren't poorly written bloatware.

4GB clearly isn't enough. Especially in modern times.
My laptop only has 4GB RAM and it really can become an issue. Especially when reclaiming memory takes too long, there are memory holes in a piece of software like Flash Player or without cache optimization.

It's actually less of a problem for most 32 bit OS', since they usually assume that there's less RAM available. However, that isn't too say 32 bit systems can't be starved.

[Blinx123]

@matthey

As much as I'd love to blame Gates, it's unlikely he had anything to do with the creation of the OS I'm using (Debian).

It's a memory hole inside the kernel that most core devs acknowledge but are unwilling to fix.
The caching mechanism as well as conservative minds are at fault here.

I recently applied a kernel patch fixing it (indeed it works very well while I'm in the office. Consuming approx. 1/3 of the memory. However, I've yet to get the Atheros wifi module working, so I can't use the custom kernel at home.

@biggun

There's a first time for everything. Perhaps one day, while writing a long document or doing your taxes, your MP3 player crashes and takes everything else with it.
Memory protection does make a huge difference.

[Blinx123]

The discussion is like talking about "seat belts".
Yes seat belts can save lives.

But I like to drive my motor bike and used to scate board when I was young.

I look at AMIGA OS as "fun" OS.
Like I look at a scate board or a motor bike.

Its fun to dirt race on the bike. And when I fall then I will fall.
Its that simple.

What I like abotu AMIGA os is that is elegant and "free" in its way to use stuff.
I can quickly hack a program together which snoops system calls.
Or which monitors the disk IO.
This is how AMIGA OS is and  I just like the way it is.

You can do that on a Unixoid too. Probably even easier due to the well documented and widely used shell scripting languages.

[Blinx123]

I talked about the choice of 32 bit 68k for the low end and 64 bit PPC for a high end Amiga with one unified API. Let's let the consumers choose:

1) 68k laptop Amiga for $1000
 o CPU speed of a Raspberry Pi or better
 o 1GB of memory
 o 40GB SSD
 o SAGA gfx with chunky
 o supports most 68k Amiga software
 o battery life of 16 hours

or

2) PPC laptop Amiga $7000
 o CPU speed of an i3 or better, 64 bit, 2-4 cores, virtualization support
 o 8GB of memory
 o 1TB hard drive
 o integrated modern gfx card
 o 68k software is sandboxed, PPC AmigaOS support is possible, no virtualization software
 o battery life of 4 hours

Like Olaf said, it's not just about wants (or even needs in this case) but what is realistic. We could probably realistically have option 1 as it would sell in the thousands. Option 2 would have a few hundred buyers and not enough high end Amiga software to take advantage of it.

I have been programming, debugging, using a web browser and transferring files with SMBFS on my Amiga for the last few weeks with several days of uptime. I have done up to 32 bit gfx editing for a web site using TVPaint, ImageFX and PPaint. I can do a lot with 128MB on a 68k classic Amiga. I could use more speed and a little more memory would be nice but I can't see any way that I would use more than 1GB of memory with current Amiga apps.

Sorry. But in what sort of parallel universe would option 1 sell in the thousands?
Those specs sound plain horrible. Especially at that price range.

Not everyone is buying hardware for vanity. Especially not past the 300 USD bar.