[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[Aegis]

WinUAE

[Aegis]

True, but the problem is the survival of AOS4 depends on the growth of its userbase, which primarily comes from the pool of classic users.  With significant growth and advancements on the classic side to keep users interested the move to a NG platfrom is not nearly as enticing.

It depends on what happens next really - and by that, I mean where the few remaining devs we have choose to invest their time.

After all, we already have OS4, MorphOS and AROS competing for users as the 'NG' platforms - Vampire makes 'classic' Amiga's viable for bigger (I won't say 'better') and more modern apps and games but aside from massively accelerating Workbench its current utility is limited by the (mostly old) software available.

If all users wanted was a blazingly fast classic Amiga then that's been available for years in the shape of UAE. Right now the Vampire is a novelty (and a fantastic technical achievement) but it's way too early to say how this is going to pan out.

I'm actually quite concerned this could potentially fragment the Amiga user-base more (if that's possible) since because the Apollo core's proprietary there's no guarantees that anything new it brings to the table will be available in (for example) WinUAE, MorphOS etc. potentially resulting in Vampire-only development that shuts out the wider community.

Time will tell - but in the meantime it's great to have powerful new options for the classic hardware.

[Aegis]

Interesting times eh?

[Aegis]

People almost forgot it... Amiga world is a market too... very small but a market. If f.e. 4.X covers needs most users do not have then they do not buy it. Simple as that. Vampire or other projects do not change that or do you think people will buy X5000s because of desperation?

There's been a lot of obstacles to OS4 adoption but the most damaging has been a lack of reasonably priced (and specced) hardware.

I bought 4.1 FE to use with WinUAE/Amiga Forever and I've been enjoying using it under emulation - if there was some decent hardware to run it on in the 200 euro range then that's what I'd be doing.

[Aegis]

I think it will have the opposite effect. In the past a "few" had 68060s and more than 32 megs of ram.
Now "everybody" will have 060++ level performance and atleast 2+128 megs of ram.
That will make releasing software even easier, since developers know there are 100s of people out there that can handle quite demanding software.

I agree with you in principle however, 'Super AGA' is whatever the Vampire devs want it to be - there's been discussions about implementing additional coppers or enhanced blitters and that's great providing these architectural changes can trickle down to UAE (assuming the devs are even interested in supporting them) - if not then Vampire-optimised software will only ever run on a Vampire.

Same deal with Xena really (but that hasn't really been used for anything).

[Aegis]

So, is it worth the price of an X1000 just to tinker?  For some it is, but not for most and not for me.  And is tinkering that much more fun on the X1000 vs. the classics?  Personally, I enjoy tinkering with classics and FPGA hardware MORE than I would on the X1000.

It's an entirely different world on OS4 (even though it looks and behaves somewhat the same as 3.x) - the software (what little of it there is) is much more modern than the classic 68k stuff which is both a good and bad thing.

I've really enjoyed tinkering with OS4/WinUAE and I've even bought a few things from the AmiStore - it's a bittersweet thing - you see the potential but at the same time realise that its time has been and gone and that in its own way it's as much of a relic as the classic Amigas are.

Which is why it doesn't hold much of a value proposition. None of that prevents it from being fun though - the only question is how much is that fun worth to you? For me it's a purchased copy of the 4.1 FE ISO and WinUAE/Amiga Forever - the only other options currently available aren't justifiable (to me).

The Vampire looks like a wonderful platform to run a pimped-out AmiKit on though

I normally work on Windows... lots of functionality and a huge software base. Perfect for work but also very complicated with registry and so on. Amiga is simplicity, you can easily restore your system. Of course not the professional software but as a hobby it is perfect.

Likewise - I have a CD32 stashed away somewhere that I'll happily stick a Vampire in if they ever make one but my day-to-day computing is done on a Windows PC - WinUAE suits all my Amiga needs for the time being until something that offers me an experience that emulation doesn't comes along (at the right price ).

[Aegis]

I'm 100% sure that anyone interested will be allowed (or rather encouraged) to replicate the 64-bit 68k mode and the SAGA extensions that apollo core will bring in their respective projects.

Here's hoping

[Aegis]

changing backgrounds.. how weird.. i think its much more interesting and rewarding tryin to help others in a group of people of different interests working towards something independently. instead of sitting there alone pushing icons around you kind of socialize with complete strangers. i just joined the apollo dev irc yesterday, not even having the hardware and it really feels good because you contribute and receive. common problems are being solved.

Nothing wrong with tinkering I'm pretty OCD when it comes to setting up computers the way I want them and AmigaOS has always been insanely customizable and it doesn't really hold your hand either - the perfect recipe for endless tinkering

And sure, collaborations are good and thanks to Amiga users and devs collaborating over the years we still (amazingly) have new toys to play with but that doesn't mean everyone's interest lies in that direction - I'm more an artist than a techie so I wouldn't bring much to that kind of scene - plus if there's one thing I hate about the Amiga community it's the politics and infighting - I don't have the patience for it any more.

But hey - I'm beta-testing the s**t out of WinUAE 3.3.0 at the moment

[Aegis]

Honest question here - not trying to be snarky or incite a flame war: do people honestly believe that potential Vampire 2 owners are more interested in running AROS on their Amigas than 3.x?

I've tinkered with AROS (68k and x86) out of curiosity and I commend the devs for their dedication to the OS and the countless hours they've invested in making it *but* from my perspective the user-base seems tiny even in comparison to OS4 and MorphOS - having used it, I can't think of a single reason to run it on a classic Amiga - even one accelerated by a Vampire.

I can't help but think that those in the Amiga community that don't consider either AmigaOS 4.1 or MorphOS as 'true' Amiga successors would  feel exactly the same way about  Vampire/AROS. If and when I do buy a Vampire, It'll be to run 3.9 - and if Cloanto, Hyperion or whoever wants to restart development on AmigaOS 3.x then I'd be more than happy to pay for that.

[Aegis]

so what do you need an updated os on 68k?

Well, we don't 'need' an updated OS but sure, I'd be happy to see some of the functionality of OS4 back-ported into 3.x - display stuff would be good (making the the OS more HD and RTG-centric) - basically bringing as much of 68k up to OS4 spec as is feasible.

I'm no programmer, but I'm guessing there's stuff that could be brought across from OS4 to make porting from 3.x to 4.1 and vice versa easier. Perhaps even officially acknowledging UAE as part of the Amiga family and making things like Wazp3D and native code supported out-of-the-box (more integration with the host OS/hardware?).  

people who think anything that comes from hyperion is the only legitimate are lost no matter what. others will simply use their rom or buy one with cloanto. others may try aros. doesnt matter, as long as it runs amiga software if you ask me.

There's plenty of users that choose Hyperion/A-Eon's offerings and are happy with them (more or less) - if the rights holders were to look at improving the ageing 68k OS I can't see that as being a bad thing (note: I doubt it'll happen unless Cloanto instigates it).

And of course, you're right - what people choose to run on their hardware is their business and I hope Vampire users are well catered for irrespective of their choice.

[Aegis]

As I understand it you are not interested in buying a Vampire anyway.

Just as soon as they make a CD32 version

There will be no new 3.1, and expecially no 4.X for 68k how some (you?) seem to fantasize. Hyperion wants to sell 4.X on real PPC hardware, even the many emulation customers are officially not supported. All that "they will backport 4.X to 68k" are wet dreams distant from any reality. What you might have got (at best) a slightly improved 3.1.

Hyperion wants to sell products that make money - PPC is simply where they've ended up (unfortunately) - and the copyright scenario has changed drastically since the days of the Pegasos. Now the classic hardware market's getting a shake-up that couldn't have happened until products like the Vampire appeared so opportunities are presenting themselves that weren't viable before due to licensing and commercial viability.

That doesn't mean you're wrong - just that if the rights-holders wanted to exploit OS 3.x to make some money, the chances of creating a product that sells are potentially greater now than they've been in a long time (since the Vampire is the first classic Amiga product to come along that's *vastly* more capable than anything we had before).

Clearly there's some will from Cloanto since they've been making minor updates to 3.x for distribution on disk, ROMs and as part as Amiga Forever. I've already stated I highly doubt any of this will result in an updated 68k OS but perhaps if there's a demand for it (due to a product like the Vampire) then it will (and clearly devs like Thomas are open to the idea and as a user I'd be interested in buying it).

Aros is a reimplementation of the 3.1 API including intuition, gadtools and many others.

Upon it you can use not only the limited default desktop but also Scalos and even Magellan (both old one and new one). When using Magellan you can even use MUI 3.8 on it (what I did). It includes additional several patches by default, moving screen out of window, AHI, CybergraphX and so on, there is PCI support and USB-Stack (Poseidon), both on 68k untested but potentially working, network stack and so on. Wawa managed to get MESA/Gallium working on 68k (though slow but who knows what future brings).

Regarding AROS, I tried the Amiga Forever downloadable and it's impressive - really, really great work. But it's not the AmigaOS I grew up with and began a career as a digital artist using - and it never can be. If there's people out there using it and getting enjoyment out of it then that's wonderful and a testament to your hard work - but it's not something I'd personally choose to use - but that's just me.

[Aegis]

Well it's just wishful thinking on my part at the moment but if the Vampire is successful enough then perhaps there's money to be made by supporting it - who knows?

I'm glad the Vampire's going to create more exposure for AROS 68k though

[Aegis]

You're right of course. Indeed, I had. I send them a pretty angry email two weeks ago how they could have possibly missed this type of a deal. There was a long talk with Gunnar, and they also f*cked this up. Thank you for pointing this out.

Then later last week send me "we would like to talk to you later, there are other FPGA projects", and my answer was, "thanks, no".

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it takes a special kind of incompetence on Hyperion's part to screw up something like this.

Given that Gunnar *wanted* AOS on Vampire this was a win-win scenario for Hyperion since devs creating new software for a more powerful 68k platform (which could have been updated to make porting to OS4 easier) would've resulted in more software on PPC.

But as others have said, they're not even interested in supporting OS4 WinUAE despite being happy to sell ISOs alongside AF2016. Truly their own worst enemy.

[Aegis]

Thomas - can you not talk to Cloanto about including them in Amiga Forever? Clearly Mike has some leeway in updating (and distributing) AmigaOS 3.x

[Aegis]

That's 'cos they jacked Bernie's idea with Amithlon. They'll be "creating" their version in A.L.I.C.E. Gee, a linux kernel that boots straight into UAE and runs AmigaOS? Why does that sound familiar? :roflmao:

Actually that's all A-Eon's doing (with the ROM/OS licensed from Cloanto plus support from Toni Wilen and the AmiKit devs). Trevor's said that A.L.I.C.E. will optionally run OS4 (a paid extra I guess) but on the laptops they've been showing off it'll run like ass (because Hyperion are doing nothing to support UAE).