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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Sleep
« on: May 14, 2008, 05:41:57 PM »
I have recently become interested in sleep: why we do it, what purpose it serves. So what follows are possibly incomprehensible musings. I make no guarantee they will make sense :-)

There are lots of theories about why we sleep, but none of them really explain it fully IMO. One theory is that it is required for mental health. But non-human animals, which probably do not have the same psyche, intellect, extent of experiences (and thus requirement for memory) as humans, still sleep. Even my two pet rats, whose experience each day is pretty much identical and presumably do not have any requirement to re-organise thought patterns or consolidate memories or work through subconscious issues, sleep a lot.

So there must be some physical reason for it. If it were just to rest and conserve energy then we could just keep still. Chemical energy fuels the cells of our bodies, and if we wanted to conserve that energy we could just stop moving. Of course our bodies are using energy all the time even when we're not moving, but the same applies whether we are sleeping or just resting.

If instead of sleeping we just stayed still, our bodies would have a chance to rest and conserve energy without needing to enter an altered state of consciousness.  But this is not what happens. Maybe when we become unconscious our bodies rest even more when we are just motionless because of physiological changes which occur during sleep (i.e. slowing of heart rate etc). So perhaps the unconsciousness is a consequence of those changes - in other words, our bodies need to rest thoroughly, and we are unable to maintain consciousness in that condition.

However, none of that explains the neurological changes which occur during sleep. Brain wave patterns alter dramatically, and we even have unconscious experiences which cross in to our conscious thoughts (e.g. dreams which we can remember). But why? As I said previously, even animals which have little variety in experience and no apparent need to re-organise or resolve their thoughts enter a sleep state. Perhaps the brain-wave changes and experiences of dreaming are actually side-effects of the changes in consciousness, which are in turn side-effects of physiological changes, rather than being the actual purpose of sleep.

This has made me think about tiredness. There is a very real difference between feeling physically tired, for example after walking a long distance and your legs feel tired, and feeling tired in the sense that you are aware that you need to sleep. In the former case, the feeling of tiredness is very physical: your legs feel exhausted, heavy and weak, and you feel like you need to rest them. In the case of feeling that you need to sleep, the sensation of tiredness is difficult to localise. Where are you sensing that you are tired? You don't necessarily feel physically exhausted just because you need to sleep. They often occur simultaneously, but the feeling of needing to sleep is still qualitatively different to the feeling of needing to rest. Which makes me believe that resting and sleeping are qualitatively different themselves. But why?



I wonder whether anyone who started reading this is still awake? :lol:

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moto
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Sleep
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 06:09:31 PM »
But that doesn't explain why animals which have much less requirement to use their subconscious still sleep. Perhaps those animals sleep for purely physical reasons, in other words to rest, and as human intellect evolved we started using sleep as an opportunity to deal with our expanding knowledge and experience. But non-human animals still become unconscious while sleeping, and as I said I don't believe they have the cognitive processes in place to make this a requirement in terms of organising thoughts or memories.

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moto
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Sleep
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 06:53:35 PM »
IMO non-human animals have no semiotic function - they cannot symbolise and do not have true language. That doesn't mean they aren't intelligent, just that their cognition is restricted to concrete operations in the "here and now". I don't believe that they have the ability to reflect on past events. They do of course have memory, but I think this is more grounded in training, conditioning, routine and recognition of the familiar rather than a mental representation of a specific event. So while I agree with you that animals have lots to process, I feel that this is all "real-time" and is not mentally revisited in the same way that it is with humans.

Of course I have no truly scientific basis for any of that. It's based purely on my understanding of language, of animal behaviour, some inference, and probably quite a bit of human arrogance :lol:

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moto
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Sleep
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 07:02:40 PM »
How can we be certain of that? The only reason we know that humans dream is because we are able to verbalise and share our experiences, including those of dreaming. Animals can't do that, so we can only go on their behaviour while sleeping (twitching or sometimes vocalising, which are not evidence of dreaming) or examine brain activity during sleep, which is inconclusive.

I'm not trying to be argumentative BTW ;-)

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moto
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Sleep
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 07:24:54 PM »
Ahh, that's cute :-) My dog does that too. Humans also make noises while sleeping, but not while dreaming. AFAIK it is impossible to vocalise during REM sleep since the body is paralysed (apart from the eyes).

Sorry but I really can't conceive of a non-human animal dreaming in the same way humans do. Even if they did, I can't see why they would need to carry out the consolidating and reorganisating functions thought to occur during sleep.

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moto
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Sleep
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 10:22:26 PM »
Quote
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
My knowledge of dreaming is too small to discuss this furthermore.

Well, you don't need any particular "knowledge" to think about things like this. It's more interesting to talk about how you see things than what may or may not be fact.

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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I think I want myself also a pet. Though, not sure whether I can afford/have one.

Cost doesn't need to be a big problem if you get a smaller pet. Rats are very entertaining, very people-oriented and very affectionate. Dogs can be expensive, but are very rewarding. I think you would enjoy a pet. They are much easier to relate to than people as there are no hidden agenda or ulterior motives.

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moto
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Sleep
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 05:40:14 PM »
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Hm, but maybe I should rather have said, I lack inspiration gained from knowledge to go deeper into this stuff.

Fair enough :-)

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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
A rat, hm, never thought about that :-)
I've had guinea pigs once, but they were not much affectionate....

If you are prepared to put in the effort to spend a lot of time with them, rats become extremely affectionate. Females are crazy energetic, but males are more docile and will happily curl up on your lap and go to sleep. Only problem with males is that they tend to scent mark. Either way, I think you would find rats really rewarding pets.

Edit - oh and btw, contrary to popular belief rats don't smell, don't bite (unless you frighten or harm them) and aren't dirty.

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moto
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