GeforceFX=surprisingly slow

[Hammer]

Deffo agree with that - those Nforce2 chipsets are the tits! Most of the computers in my house use Via "crapsets", and the Nforce2 is worth about another 200+ rating on them.

Where?

[Hammer]

Deffo agree with that

Is that relevant?

 - those Nforce2 chipsets are the tits!

Is that relevant?

Most of the computers in my house use Via "crapsets",

Is that relevant?

I do own MSI built VIA KT class chipset and have access to ASUS built to VIA KT class chipset test machines.

 and the Nforce2 is worth about another 200+ rating on them.

What do you  mean by "Nforce2 is worth about another 200+ rating on them"?

[Hammer]

 Check Toms hardware and you'll see the 128 bit FP support in the R300

Sorry, I should be referring to "Max pixel shader precision".

Refer to
http://tech-report.com/etc/2002q3/nextgen-gpus/index.x?pg=5

I was pointing out that the Nvidia solution was SLOWER. i.e. less throughput and more latency
Go figure THAT out........

Refer to my "Posted : 2003/1/29 11:45" for a similar statements.

[Hammer]

20 odd days aint goona get a huge performance increase in all likelyhood, is it? (and yes I know its been done before)

The drivers v42.70 was still in beta form...

[Hammer]

No, that wasn't at all my claim. My claim was don't neglect the market you're good in for a chance to try your hand in a market you're not so good in.

Are you implying “nForce 2” chipset is not competitive with VIA KT class chipset?

Now, for a review of the facts of what's happened:
1) they're blowing ship dates.

Their chip fab contractor has blown the dates.

From recorded history, fab companies has missed their time schedule during their shift to .13 process.

2) While the NV30 is powerful, it's more of only a tweak above the 9700Pro, rather than the generation jump that was originally marketed...

Did they (i.e. nVidia)?

I recall, their official comparison was with the GeForce 4-4600 TI. Majority of the so-called hype was magnified by the press.

[Hammer]

 YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO AGREE WITH ANYONE!  

Your words.

OK i'll reword it.  The Nforce2 Mobo's appear to be up to 10% faster in many tests than the VIA based ones.  Therefore, on a 2000XP, they are worth another 10% i.e. It then performs like a 2200XP or has an extra 200+

A little bit of effort doesn’t bug anyone.

I checked your link - personally I dont care if the R300 ONLY has 96 bit pixel shader precision, that still allows 7.9x10^28 different positions.  I think thats plenty.
The point is the GeforceFX is a crock of sh*te.

Very centric response.

[Hammer]

It would be nice to see a 0.13 micron version of Radeon9700PRO running at 500Mhz or faster....

Both sides has their own advancement strategy.  

Refer to
NV35 plans for post NV30 era

[Hammer]

No... I'm implying that they gave up the clear-cut lead in the fairly high-margin GPU market to create that chipset. Basically the nForce is a good chipset, but it was a poor business decision, and the fact that it's horribly mis-marketed surely can't help matters.

Mis-marketed? How?

Exactly what market is nVidia trying to hit??
.

As with Intel 845 (and E7) series, it should target at all price points.  

First off, chipsets don't have the profits of high-end graphics processors. Especially not chipsets that only work with AMD processors, which are currently suffering because very few OEM companies are producing computers supporting them.
.

Based on what?
 

 In fact, about the only way to get a computer with an AMD processor is to purchase the poorest of the HP offerings -- which wouldn't use an nVidia chipset, or go white-box or self-built. White box and self-built machines don't sell in the same quantities (as say Dell) and have even LESS of a profit margin.
.

Refer to http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/hardware/previews/nForce%202/

[Hammer]

You are the one that said pointless when I agreed

I didn't say it was "pointless". Please find the word "pointless" in my post.

So you dont disagree, then?

Are there any reasons to agree in the first place?   The product is not even released in the market place.

I checked your link - personally I dont care if the R300 ONLY has 96 bit pixel shader precision, that still allows 7.9x10^28 different positions. I think thats plenty.

The "first cause" post was in regards to transistor count and the potential reason why relatively large number of transistors was included with GeF FX.    

You can’t get something for nothing in regards to hardware features vs transistor count.  

The point is the GeforceFX is a crock of sh*te.

You haven’t made any substantial evidence why that view is valid. Except for writing fan fiction.

Refer to http://www.nvnews.net/articles/geforce_fx_commentary/index.shtml for past driver improvements(within the GeF 4 TI line).

Refer to http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/Today/nvidia3/nvda_tdy_4.htm for more information regarding GeF FX, nForce 2, John Carmack and 'etc'.

[Hammer]

The high-end version with firewire support

So does the similar priced ~$150 USD Audigy 2 card...

has a semi-poor built-in sound card that no gamer would want.

It’s a similar chip that was included in a X-BOX btw… “No gamer wants” assertion is completely wrong.

Have you tried running +32 channel midi–channel midi file on emu10k series card yet (for HW accelerated not the buddled SW option)?  
   
Nvidia’s Sound Storm has access to bandwidth beyond the PCI limit (All CL’s DSP cards are limited by this standard). There was also a talk about releasing nVidia Sound Storm for PCI-Express enabled slots (PCI-Express enabled slots has the necessary bandwidth to support 200+ HW accelerated channels).    

It’s good enough to match Audigy 1 and SBLive 5.1 DE level markets. Sound Storm also includes Creative Labs’s style EAX user configurable control panel and Dobby Digital Encoding (for multi-channel DirectSound3D titles).

Dobby Digital Encoding feature has yet to be included in VIA's and CL's audio card add-ons solution.

Sound Storm is a 24Bit DSP/APU chip (just like CL’s emu10k series).  But this is dependant on motherboard vendor’s installed CODEC. CODEC stage can be bypass via direct digital SPDIFOUT ports.

NVidia’s “Sound Storm” is a Microsoft reference for hardware implemented DirectX 8.x class audio.  

For Sound Storm's Dobby Digital Encoding feature refer to
http://www.overclockers.com.au/article.php?id=134416

All versions sport the on-board GeForce4MX,

Completely wrong. I recall ASUS A7N8X Deluxe (SPP/MCP-T) doesn’t include MX4x0 level IGP…

which isn't a good fit for gamers or graphics workstations, either

It runs QuakeIII and relate titles well enough compared VIA /Savage 2000 solution.

[Hammer]

the GeForceFX reminds me of the Voodoo5 in more ways then one...and thats NOT a good thing... by in large the Voodoo5 is what sunk 3DFX and it'll sink nvidia to if they cant pull out of this slump.... looseing visiontek is a big-deal to them aswell.

At least nVidia hasn’t made those massive 4 chips in 1 AGP card.

The lesser/cheaper GeF FX 5800 (9700 non-Pro edition market segment) sibling doesn’t require such cooling add-ons.

Note that ATI has survived from being second to nVidia from the past history. 3DFX’s collapse is a combination of legal battles with vNidia, non-completive value/middle markets segments, reduced distribution access (i.e. switched to non-multi-vendor sourced model(e.g. 3DFX only vendor)).  

[Hammer]

the GeForceFX reminds me of the Voodoo5 in more ways then one...and thats NOT a good thing... by in large the Voodoo5 is what sunk 3DFX and it'll sink nvidia to if they cant pull out of this slump.... looseing visiontek is a big-deal to them aswell.

Refer to http://www.tech-report.com/sendto_friend.x/4679/
Gainward to offer quieter GeForce FX?

[Hammer]

the GFFX is relatively slow

Not true for all of the cases.

and relatively noisey...

Did you miss my previous post?

 it costs alot and delivers less then expected.

Are you claiming that one could actual buy the product?

Beta version of "Detonator 42.86 for Windows 2000/XP" should be floating somewhere in the internet (eg. Guru3D.com)....

As beta releases (leaks) indicates, continual product development is currently taking place.

[Hammer]

Notice the word “Preorder”. The product is not currently in stock (ETA 2/17/2003) .

[Hammer]

I'm not saying nvidia is toast...but they better work very hard on their next card...or their going down...

IF history can be use as a guide, it took NV11 and NV15 to fix most of the problems with NV10. All 3 cards are DirectX 7 class GPU.

The typical nVidia initial product introduction problems were also mirrored with nForce 1. The problem was mostly fixed with nForce 2.  Both have DirectX7 class IGP and Sound Storm APU.

I don’t think they would change this pattern.

Another Geforce FX vs ATI R300 refer tothis

I wonder why Nvidia didn’t go for Leadtek size solid copper based solution. Leadtek cooling solution is to add metal around 80 percent of the card’s surface (both sides).  

John Carmack's statements regarding DOOM3, R300 and NV30.

[Hammer]

(SNIP) has a semi-poor built-in sound card that no gamer would want

Poor sound card? Note that Dolby recommends nForce2 for playing games with Dolby Digital content.

Refer to http://www.dolby.com/games/pc.faq.html