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Offline Hammer

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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« on: November 26, 2003, 09:29:35 PM »
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crystall wrote:
PowerPC have both drawbacks and and advantages compared to x86s, the main drawback being the price. Power consumption is usually a higher performance/power ratio, they are more suited for multi-tasking apps (in fact it's the x86 that have some flaws which come from backward compatibility) and much more powerful vector processing capabilities. AltiVec is still unmatched by other ISAs. Anyhow you could check www.arstechnica.com, they had some nice article on PowerPC vs x86.

Careful with theoretical performance claims when practical performance** indicates otherwise.

Refer to latest MacWorld’s PowerPC 970(Apple) vs Athon FX-51 (AlienWare)…

References
1. http://www.alienware.com/review_pages/review_template.aspx?FileName=review_macworld_1203.asp

2.
http://www.theandyzone.com/computer/shootout/shootout.html
(Just with the older Athlon 2000+ VS PowerPC 970

3.
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,7,00.asp
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Offline Hammer

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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2003, 09:44:03 PM »
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AmigaMac wrote:
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Careful with theoretical performance claims when practical performance indicates otherwise.


It's a matter of opinion... practical and/or theoretical.

Opinions has limits in regards to practical results.

Refer to the removal of Apple’s “world’s fastest PC” marketing campaign in certain European countries.    
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2003, 11:00:11 PM »
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how do the A1's ram and cpu buses compare against modern PCs?

MAI’s Northbridge is actually pretty good as a Northbridge for SDRAM class solution… IF they release that product in the Pentium II era they may have been the “NVIDIA” in core logics.

IF the claims are true, MAI’s Northbridge has ability give the concurrent AGP<>Memory access and CPU<> Memory access.

Such features has been done in NVIDIA’s nForce series core logics (with DDR and dual memory controllers).

With nForce’s Northbridge (IGP, SPP), it has the ability to use spare/excess bandwidth for filling it’s Northbridge’s cache via speculative pre-predication processor i.e. fetching common used data and store it on the Northbridge’s cache, thus bring the relevant data closer to CPU.  Between K7 Athlon <> Northbridge chip, it uses EV6 bus architecture as found in DEC’s Alpha EV6 (e.g. scales up to DDR400). K7’s EV6 bus architectures has been eclipsed by K8's Hyper-transport bus architectures.

MAI Northbridge's circular buffer is interesting i.e. I don’t know IF it has speculative prediction feature as in NVIDIA's nForce.

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the evolution path, how does it compare against the newer 64 bit cpus from Intel and AMD? Is

Refer to earlier links.

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IBM commited in continuing the research and development?

They have Power5….
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I've read that most of the next generation consoles will have a PPC, is this true? If so, will this help reducing the prices of ppc machines?

Embedded PowerPC 4xx processor is cheap enough (e.g. Nintendo Game Cube**).
**Subsidise to certain level by Nintendo’s games sales.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2003, 11:21:52 PM »
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Première is a discontinued app under MacOS X so why bother benchmarking it?

It’s a similar app vs similar app.

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Who the heck plays Quake III today?

Many games uses Quake III engine.

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 Why not trying UT2003 or something more recent?

Note that Quake III is more dependant on the processor.

Anyway, refer to Barefeets.com's benchmarks in that regard.

Refer to
http://www.barefeats.com/p4game.html

Game bias Athlon 64 3200+(2.0Ghz)/Athlon FX-51(2.2Ghz)/Opteron 248(2.2Ghz) based system pretty much slaughters Pentium IV @3.0GHz (and 3.2Ghz in lesser extent; needs EE) in playing high performance games.

The K7 Athlon in that barefeet’s benchmarks is an Athlon MP 2600+ class not the Athlon MP 2800+ nor it's the Athlon XP 3200+/nForce 2 400 Ultra.

[/quote]
Word benchmarks? They must be kidding...
[/quote]
It’s similar app vs similar app.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2003, 11:36:11 PM »
 
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The mistake of the plural word "countries" stretches the truth just a bit since this only affected the UK region.

Refer to Scotland and England in the Rugby world cup....

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Take Microsoft's "Do more with less" TV ad campaign, we all know that's misleading.

Why is it misleading?

Why not see your Trade Practise commission and complain?  

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That's right, and that's why the whole dream world of x86 being somewhat an unchallenged speed-demon quickly hits the wall or reality.

The X86 world doesn’t have to compete with Apple’s "reality distortion field" (TM).

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But you don't see me calling up my local TV station requesting to take it off the air, because I (and many other common sense folk) take anything shown on television with a grain of salt (even the G5 commercial, though it was cute).

“G5 commercial (i.e. "the World fastest PC” claim) went over the top due to existence of AMD's K8 systems (illustrated as an example).

Apple has knack of avoiding AMD’s K8 in their benchmark comparisons for certain reasons.
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2003, 12:01:47 AM »
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Still the UK at the end of the day!

It’s not much different to Euro Zone i.e. one common currency, one central bank, multiple parliaments** and a unified European parliament.

**National parliaments reduced as state parliaments(in effect).

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I'm talking about the cost aspect they're claiming, not the Wizard hell that is Windows!

You have not offer debunking papers in that regard.

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Obviously they must, or they wouldn't raise such a stink about it, now would they?!

There’s a level “marketing” before it comes to “misleading conduct”. Apple’s advertisement is too exposed in their claims of “Worlds Fastest PC” since it loses in some of the benchmarks in the older systems.  
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2003, 12:07:52 AM »
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AmigaMac wrote:
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It’s a similar app vs similar app.


If they're going to do such, they might as well have run Adobe Premiere -vs- Apple's Final Cut Pro.  Premiere is a dead product as far as the Mac is concerned.

Note that Adobe Premiere is not optimised on AMD64 i.e. needs Windows XP AMD64 Edition(currently in beta stage).

Both systems are running on legacy modes.
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2003, 12:27:43 AM »
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AmigaMac wrote:
Quote

Note that Adobe Premiere is not optimised on AMD64 i.e. needs Windows XP AMD64 Edition(currently in beta stage).

Both systems are running on legacy modes.


Yeah but they both  can run 32-bit mode, so just run a benchmark with FCP -vs- Premiere -vs- Avid Express (on both systems) to make it more fun  :-D

Which one is “more” similar?
1. Adobe Premiere VS Adobe Premiere
VS
2. Final Cut Pro VS Adobe Premiere

IF you can offer free licenses for these programs why not mail them to MacWorld/PCWorld?  Make sure it’s available for both Win32 and MacOS…
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Offline Hammer

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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2003, 01:25:34 AM »
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All these "very high end vs very high end" comparisons are pretty academic IMHO. What's the good of knowing which of a PPC970 or Opteron is better if I (or over 80% of computer buyers) can't afford either? it makes for good cafeteria discussion, but I think people would be more intestested in something like 7447 (G4+) vs Athlon XP or Pentium 4.

One could  focus on the second tier solutions e.g. Athlon 64 3200+, Athlon XP 3200+/nForce2, Pentium VI– C @2.8Ghz,  PowerPC 970 1.6Ghz based solutions.

IF we look* at Cinebench 2003's CPU render benchmarks from
http://aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000272
http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html
http://www.theandyzone.com/computer/shootout/shootout.html

IBM
G5 @1.6 GHz delivers 222 points (1Ghz FSB).
G5 @1.8 GHz delivers 251 points (1Ghz FSB).

AMD
K7-XP @1.6 Ghz delivers 207 points (266Mhz FSB).
K7-XP @2.2 GHz delivers 265 points (400Mhz FSB).
K8-FX @2.2 GHz delivers 305 points (@ Core speed).

Intel**
P4-C  @3.2 GHz delivers 380 points (800Mhz FSB).

*Focus on just 1-way processor setups.
**With actually working HyperThreading i.e. it's broken in some other apps.
***This FSB refers to CPU core<>Northbridge speeds links. FSB's values are "effective" Mhz.
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2003, 01:37:29 AM »
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AmigaMac wrote:
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F you can offer free licenses for these programs why not mail them to MacWorld/PCWorld? Make sure it’s available for both Win32 and MacOS…


If they can't afford licenses for those titles, then they might as well shut down the presses.  Furthermore, these people get those licenses for free just to do reviews on them!  They have a problem with this thing called tunnel vision.  Instead of being creative on the benchmarks, they just follow suit with the other one nighters!

Note that these presses include MacWorld i.e. MacOS orientated press.  The overriding factors for PCWorld is the availability the similar applications for Win32 and MacOS.
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2003, 01:40:18 AM »
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AmigaMac wrote:
At least give the PS benches:

http://www.geocities.com/sw_perf/PSBench.html

I already know that page (I bookmark it some time ago).

Secondly, it doesn’t cover dual Opteron 246 @2.0 on VIA K8T800..
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2003, 01:46:54 AM »
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The MacWorld and PC World come from the same publisher. Excuse NOT valid!

Post the said benchmark IF it proves your case.
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2003, 02:02:15 AM »
Quote

AmigaMac wrote:
Quote
Secondly, it doesn’t cover dual Opteron 246 @2.0 on VIA K8T800..


We live not in a perfect world.  How often do they update the G4/G5 benches... see my point?

Opteron is targeted mostly at the server market anyways.

Note that, NVIDIA's nForce3 Pro**(1-way) and nForce3 250*(2-way, 4+4) targets workstations/high performance gaming machines. Also holds true for VIA's Socket 940 motherboards for  2-way 4+1 and 1-way  motherboards.

*soon to be released.

Athlon FX 51 is identical to Opteron 148 in very respects, except in name. Such regime is similar to Athlon XP and Athlon MP renaming schemes.

One should take note of Opteron’s suffix, its companion Socket 940 motherboard and targeted price in relation to market targeting.  


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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2003, 02:06:23 AM »
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AmigaMac wrote:
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Post the said benchmark IF it proves your case.


I don't have to prove any case.  You're the one whining about software app availability/access for these mags, not me!

That’s what they said in their limitations page.
The availability and “sameness” of the applications for both platforms takes precedence.
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Re: In search for info on PPC cpus
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2003, 02:13:41 AM »
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AmigaMac wrote:
At least give the PS benches:

http://www.geocities.com/sw_perf/PSBench.html

I would like to add that the Barefeet.com's link has PS7 benchmarks (IF one follows the embedded links).
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