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Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2009, 02:25:15 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511064

Sorry you missed the point of how VGA is backward compatible on hardware level with EGA/CGA.

>You cannot say that given that you made no effort to test that the data you were recieving wasn't infact signal noise, indeed your "proof" was and is as it stands utter garbage. You were given a solution that would test it one way or the other. I have yet to see you put your hypothesis to an actual test yet. Simply repeating "it's better" over and over does not make it so.

You missed that point as well then.  I gave you LOGICAL statements how you can have millisecond readings which you NEVER replied to.  Just declaring it "garbage" does not change reality.  You are as biased as they come.  It's faster EVEN IF YOU DON'T SAMPLE AT 1KHZ.

>There is always likely to be bugs in software, but that is not the same as a flaw in an API and you should damn well know that! Also, DirectX now supports a great many things that it didn't in the past, the reason for version changes was to allow for the addition of newer capabilities, bug fixes have nothing to do with the DX version number.

I said it's not my argument but I know there are bugs in implementation of the API where certain video cards don't work the same for the same function.

That’s an implementation issue. The product should be following the reference renderer.

Quote from: amigaksi;511064

>Correct. But also wrong. You are also limited by your own abilities. Doing things your way means extra work and hassle for everyone else.

Yes, you are limited by your abilities, but you are more restricted with just an API rather than both API and hardware level compatibilities.

You made the same mistake as PS3 fanboys. OpenGL can be expanded via vendor specific extensions. You are welcome to implement your own OpenGL driver.
Make sure you target AmigaOS 4.x.

Using Oblivion (PC edition) game’s example, ATI’s chuck patch enables HDR FP+AA via driver level patch i.e. it overcomes Direct3D 9c's limitations.

"Hitting the metal" doesn't change NVIDIA RSX's hardware limitation e.g.
1. Limited vertex resource. NVIDIA G80 fixes this feature.
2. Lack of HDR FP render targets + hardware AA. NVIDIA G80 fixes this feature.
3. Lack of geometry shader instructions. NVIDIA G80 fixes this feature.
4. Lack of Early-Z hardware features. NVIDIA G80 fixes this feature.
5. Avoiding pixel shader stalls during texture fetch. NVIDIA G80 fixes this feature.
6. Limited shader branch support. NVIDIA G80 fixes this feature.
7. Lack of Giga-Thread hardware features. NVIDIA G80 fixes this feature.

NVIDIA's G7x and RSX hardware functionality basically follows Direct3D 9c limitations.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 03:49:37 AM by Hammer »
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Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2009, 02:46:33 AM »
Quote from: smerf;511039

Hi,
@Karlos

Yea we were all suckered into buying VISTA for DX10, then after it came out, they upgraded it to 10.1 which threw a lot of the new amazing cards out, causing bugs in their coding. Case in point nvidia 8800 cards. So really you are using DX10.1, I could look back in my Max PC mags to put down all the details but very few people know about that.

Current CUDA GPUs can enable some DX10.1 features via NVAPI. Best example is FarCry2 PC.

"FarCry 2 reads from a multisampled depth buffer to speed up antialiasing performance. This feature is fully implemented on GeForce GPUs via NVAPI. Radeon GPUs implement an equivalent path via DirectX 10.1. There is no image quality or performance difference between the two implementations."
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Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2009, 06:54:31 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511101

First of all, my application that I used to test several SB cards does not require any drivers, TSRs, or even COMMAND.COM/BIOS/etc.

On modern desktop PC, one needs a memory protected multi-tasking OS. The audio system must share it's resources to multiple applications e.g. Web Browser (with Flash's FLV), WinAMP, PowerDVD, Cakewalk Sonar and "Games For Windows" title(s).

Quote from: amigaksi;511101

It runs by directly going to the hardware I/O ports, DMA channels, IRQ vectors.

I/O, IRQ and DMA conflicts returns.

Quote from: amigaksi;511101

 I am not saying *ALL* sound blaster cards are backward compatible.

Most laptops in 2008 are shipped with HDA codec. Good luck with SB compatibility.

Despite it's name, the new soundblaster models are hardware incompatible with legacy Soundblasters. However, they have emulation drivers. This applies for SB128, SB512, SBLive!, SB Audigy, SB Audigy 2 and SB X-Fi.

Quote from: amigaksi;511101

I was giving an example, that it is possible for sound cards to maintain backward compatibility on the hardware level and the bullcrap about it's too complex nowadays is just that-- bullcrap.

It's easy with XNA. The industry made a good move in removing Creative Lab’s standard.
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2009, 07:06:31 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511129

As I said before, I write something using OCS hardware registers and it will work on OCS, ECS, and AGA-- nothing to modify between the machines.  Incompatibilities were not caused by these hardware registers.

Well, Paula didn't change much.

It would be a joke to compared CBM's OCS/ECS/AGA's evolution rate to NVIDIA's NV20/NV30/G70/G80/G200/G300(soon).

Quote from: amigaksi;511129

>The problem with your point is that it only works in your magical fairyland.

No, it works right now.  If people use hardware standards rather than APi standards, you have better computers to program.  You are in some fairyland because you don't even understand what is being discussed.

You'll get PS3 instead. We all know PS3 was "designed to be hard to program" LOL.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2009, 07:33:33 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511065

I don't see the argument why you MUST have an API access only.  

Re-target capability.

Quote from: amigaksi;511065

And if hardware compatibility can help make things more efficient,

Less efficient when dealing complex abstract objects. In modern game programming, you have middleware vendors to accelerate development. API libraries like PhysX or Havok.

PhysX enabled game can be made to run on
1. CPU e.g. X86 or PPC
2. GPU (CUDA processor)
3. PPU (PhysX Processor Unit)
4. CELL

Your program is simplistic in nature.

Quote from: amigaksi;511065

 why not spend the time.  I/O has improved but not as much as processor speeds.

Depends on the I/O. Hypertransport is magnitude faster than Amiga's joystick port.
Building a clustered supercomputer based on Amiga’s joystick port would be a joke.

Quote from: amigaksi;511065

And I gave the example of palette changes which (if you go time them) you will find they are not that much faster than amiga changing palette.  This is just one example.

My CUDA GPU is faster than Amiga's changing palette capabilities i.e. the compute wavefront is larger. The purpose pixel shader is .... pixel processing.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 08:22:58 AM by Hammer »
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2009, 07:35:33 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511068
I was making the point that certain applications go directly to hardware yet don't effect the multitasking OS.  They return and OS is still stable as it was.  Even the examples of audio playback in Compute! magazines are directly writing to hardware registers rather than making APi calls.

You haven't answered Protracker 1 vs Octamed 4 vs Deluxe Music  2.0 interactions.

On modern GPU and using NVIDIA's Cg shaders

const static float3x3 m = float3x3(
    0.2209, 0.3390, 0.4184,
    0.1138, 0.6780, 0.7319,
    0.0102, 0.1130, 0.2969);

inline float4 PS3_LogLuv_Encode(in float3 rgb)
{
    float4 res; // float4(Ue, Ve, LeHigh, LeLow)
    float3 Xp_Y_XYZp = mul(rgb,m);
    Xp_Y_XYZp = max(Xp_Y_XYZp, float3(1e-6, 1e-6, 1e-6));
    res.xy = Xp_Y_XYZp.xy / Xp_Y_XYZp.z;
    float Le = 2 * log2(Xp_Y_XYZp.y) + 128;
    res.z = Le / 256;
    res.w = frac(Le);
    return res;
}
Running this code through NVShaderPerf gives 5 cycles for 9 instructions. When inserted at the end of a longer shader where there is plenty of room for instruction pairing, the total overhead for the LogLuv conversion will be less than this, perhaps around 3 cycles.

This code snippet is use to enable HDR and hardware AA on PS3. The other exercise is to do the conversion from LogLuv back to RGB.

This type of optimisation works on Geforce 7. I like PS3 devs for taking care of Geforce 7 and other DirectX9c class GPUs.

If you have any modern GPU enquires, one should visit Beyond3D's forums i.e. you have professional game developers lurking in that particular forums.

On Amiga, without OpenGL shaders it's difficult to test shader code snippets from PS3 and XNA forums.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 12:40:13 PM by Hammer »
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2009, 08:52:48 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511129

>...say well played to you, you're right the joystick is capable of responding to hits at X speed quicker then a USB based approach.

That's not even the point.  Joystick on Amiga is faster even if you do one sample every 1/60 second.  

Vista's default USB mouse poll rate is 125Hz or 1/125 per second. There are hacks to increase this default rate to 1000hz. My Logitech gaming mouse uses its own drivers.

USB2.0 can support external graphics card and sound card (e.g. external X-Fi).

http://winstars.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008814464080/pdtl/USB-video/1014405597/USB-Graphics-Card-Adapter.htm

"A fast usb host can achieve 40 MBytes/sec. The theorical 60 MB/sec cannot be achieved, because of the margin taken between the sof's (125 us), so if a packet cannot take place before the sof, the packet will be rescheduled after the next sof. On top of that, all the USB transactions are handled by software on the PC. For instance, a USB host on a PCI bus will send or receive the data via the PCI bus; the stack will prepare the next data in memory and receive interrupt from the host."

Quote from: amigaksi;511129

And why are you narrowing to just USB; Gameport is also a valid joystick port for millions of PC owners.

As of 2008, laptop PCs has overtaken the desktop PC in annual unit sales. It would be difficult to find legacy game port on these laptops. Most laptops include an ExpressCard I/O port i.e. external PCI-Express X1 port.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 09:20:24 AM by Hammer »
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2009, 12:14:59 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511168

Looks like you got your "quote" "/quote"s mixed up, but I'll address your points: (1) Yeah, you can build a custom joystick interface for your PC that's faster than Amigas-- but what's standard out there-- gameport and USB port based joysticks are inferior.
.

USB multifunction modules that provides 1 MHz sampling speed .
http://www.iotech.com/products/pdaq3s.htm

USB modules that provides 2 MHz sampling speed.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15005752_ITM

"High Speed" USB has 125 usec to 4 sec maximum latency with bInterval 125 usec.
"Full Speed" USB has 1 msec to 255 msec maximum latency with bInterval 1 msec.

Most USB devices today are developed using a microcontroller, the microcontroller can be used to
queue up the data  and make it available to the host in larger transfers, thereby decreasing the number
of transfers and increasing the size of each transfer and increasing efficiency.

Depending on many factors the host processor may not be able to transfer the interrupt data at
the requested interval. OS design, driver design, application software, CPU speed, and bus
bandwidth may all limit the host’s ability to meet the obligation to poll for interrupt transfer data
within the required interval.

The hardware is capable. It's up to the customer to select the right software solution i.e.
1. RTOS QNX, eCos.  
2. Adding RT modules for Windows XP Embedded e.g. Venturcom RTX, INtime.
3. Switch MS Windows edition i.e. Windows CE .NET. Refer to http://www.windowsfordevices.com/articles/AT2137345992.html

Quote from: amigaksi;511168

  Nor are PCs headed toward that direction of building PCI digital joystick cards
.

There's Catweasel IV. It's too bad it's not in ExpressCard format.

Quote from: amigaksi;511168

 nor parallel port based joystick interfaces.  (2) Regarding going directly to hardware on PCs-- that's still a fantasy since modern PC hardware is NOT compatible on the hardware level.  It's only compatible on API level.  And that's the guts of my current argument-- if PC had hardware compatibility instead of API compatibility, it would allow for better more efficient software.  Only legacy ports are giving you that option currently.

I don’t know why you are addicted to this joystick thing?

What market are you targeting?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 12:37:49 PM by Hammer »
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2009, 01:32:45 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511184

Paula didn't change much is not the point.  The other custom chips that did do enhancement are also backward compatible with OCS.

The changes is comparatively minor. We are talking about following the latest micro-architecture paradigm and implementing them. From Nov 2006 to Q1 2010, you have G200 (SIMT) and G300 (MIMT*) designs being released.
 
In the GPU market, maximum math unit count at a given transistor budget is paramount. Adding legacy compatibility reduces the available transistors for math units.
Haven’t you noticed that ATI and NVIDIA are in GFLOPS and TFLOPS race?

Quote from: amigaksi;511184

Evolution rate should not impede people for making them backward compatible on hardware level.

It's a matter of priorities. The market with get a GPU with legacy ISA support i.e. Intel Larrabee.

Quote from: amigaksi;511184

The point is that the methodology of going about it is inferior-- they are already targeting only API level compatibility.

It's actually superior when factoring the maximising math unit count.
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2009, 01:52:34 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;511190

Again, I have to disagree with you. More on this in a sec.

>No, what it would usher in would be a whole new round of I/O, IRQ and DMA conflicts as different programs fought for control of hardware, oblivious to one another. As well as very painfully kludged hardware.



As I said in a previous post, that's all great for the very basics, but once you get into multiple layers of this and things become more complex, the hassle of maintaining this hardware compatability becomes emense, not to mention pointless - no desktop built in the last few years has a serial or parallel port, ISA hasn't been seen for over a decade and PCI has (largely) been discontinued, this is true especially of fast evolving things like graphics.

The modern x86_64 is perhaps one of the most kludgey processors ever created, it is essentially a highly advanced risc core that has to have a pile of extra logic to convert between what we know as x86 and what it uses internally. I read somewhere (ok, I could be wrong and I would appreciate being corrected on this) that nearly a third of all the logic built into an x86 core is there purely to translate between x86 and the risc part. A third!

Refer to http://www.chip-architect.com/news/2003_09_21_Detailed_Architecture_of_AMDs_64bit_Core.html

It's about 10 percent for K8 Sledgehammer. The legacy tax is more apparent when you implement this as a GPU i.e. maximising math unit counts.

Unlike CPU vs CPU battles, the argument for clean designs is actually strong for the GPU market.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 02:07:20 PM by Hammer »
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2009, 02:28:07 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511186
I know anyone can build hardware for any computer to do anything computer is able to do.  But we are looking at standards.  If all I did was talk about Video Toaster features on Amiga 4000, it wouldn't be talking about the general Amiga audience.

>There's Catweasel IV. It's too bad it's not in ExpressCard format.

Yeah, some Atari people also built joystick interface using parallel port but PC games out there aren't using it nor does having many different non-standard joystick interfaces give you ability to do low-level programming.

>I don’t know why you are addicted to this joystick thing?

It was one of the things mentioned that is superior on Amiga, but some people can't understand that so the argument keeps going on and on.

>What market are you targeting?

Most of the audience.  In amigas case, if you use the joystick interface $DFF00A, it works on all Amigas.

What about A1 and SAM?
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Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2009, 11:50:14 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511270

So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

A yawn subject.

Quote from: amigaksi;511270

So far no one has shown why API-based systems are superior to hardware level compatibility.  


APIs enables the hardware to change significantly and reduce hardware complexity i.e. save on
1. Transistor usage,
2. Energy consumption.
3. Maximised math units.

Geforce 9650M GT:  22watts/(32 SP* + 8 SSP**) = 0.55 watts*** per stream processor.
It has excellent performance per watt.

*Dual Issue Stream Processor.
**Special Stream Processor.
***Should be less than this i.e. not factoring texture units, Early-Z, Giga-threading, Filters, AA, Pure-Video 3(another SIMD array) and etc.

Example of significant hardware change is between disastrous Geforce FX 5800 (VILW based) and fixed Geforce 6800 (SIMD based).

Higher level API's advantage is to encapsulate complex functions e.g. PhysX, XNA.

Quote from: amigaksi;511270

So far no one has shown that simple example of palette index swap is faster using APIs.

My Quake 3 (demo001, normal settings) results in +500 FPS.

Quote from: amigaksi;511270

So I don't know what you are reading.  Perhaps you need glasses.

That's all you can do?
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Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2009, 11:55:44 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;511311
And the user-experience?

Able to run multiple FLV in HD, upscale DVD (e.g. PowerDVD 8), play Blu-Ray 1080p movies, mobility and 'etc'.
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2009, 08:54:03 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511396
go look it up yourself how the parallel ports did enhance-> spp -> bpp -> epp -> ecp and also isa -> vesa-based -> pci.

isa->e-isa->vlb->pci
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2009, 09:04:46 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511411
Hey I stopped arguing since it's obvious Amiga joystick port is faster, butl someone started to challenge it again.

>APIs enables the hardware to change significantly and reduce hardware complexity i.e. save on
>1. Transistor usage,
>2. Energy consumption.
>3. Maximised math units.

Hardware can be enhanced significantly and retain hardware  compatibility.  As for reducing hardware complexity-- well why do they retain processor compatibility then-- same argument can be applied there as well.

Depends on the priority. Notice the CPU didn't keep up with the GPU market in pure math performance.
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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #44 from previous page: June 16, 2009, 09:59:16 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511401
If hardware that is backward compatible uses same I/O ports, IRQs, DMA channels-- there no conflicts to be resolved.  When hardware vendors use their on I/O ports arbitrarily, their own IRQ channels, DMA channels then you have conflicts to resolve.  
The Wintel PC is an open platform.

Quote from: amigaksi;511401
>If you're having to reinvent the wheel and have every application bang the metal to the extent the app requires, you are in effect writing a (partial) driver or framework for your application to sit on...

Ahhm, did you miss the list I gave of advantages; you wouldn't rewrite the driver-- the OS would have the functionality built-in without needing drivers and application would be able to go directly to hardware where driver functionality is not supported or inefficient (like palette example).  
If the userland applications "hits-the-metal",  who will arbitrate the device's access?
I'm still waiting on Protracker vs OctaMED V4 vs Deluxe Music.

Quote from: amigaksi;511401
>The gains of hardware compatability, yes, lets add 10, 20, 30% extra silicon to every major I/O chip for stuff that's no longer used and long dead... Your entire argument is based on a fairytale world.

Sorry, you keep missing the point.  That's your speculation 10-30% extra silicon.  Even with some extra silicon, it's worth it given the benefits.  
As for the benefits, it depends on the market.

The legacy percentage for AMD K8 Winchester is larger than AMD K8 Sledge-Hammer i.e.
1.  K8 Sledge-Hammer, ~10 percent for legacy 105 million.
2.  K8 Winchester i.e, ~17 percent for legacy from 68.5 million.
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