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Offline Hammer

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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« on: December 23, 2007, 10:25:02 PM »
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monami wrote:
from amiga history: 1991.

"1991: Standing still

The deep cracks in Commodore turn to huge tidal waves as many people loose faith in the market. Commodore launch a low-end upgrade to the A500 - the Amiga 500 plus - without informing anyone that they were shipping the product and the CDTV was canceled."


Refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Mach
ATI's timeline for Mach GPU series. Starting with ATI's Mach8 in 1991, Mach32 in 1992 and Mach64 in 1994.

Overlay that with AGA and AAA timelines.

The Amiga 500 Plus (AmigaOS 2.0x, 2MB Fat Agnus, Super Denise) is just revised version Amiga 500 Rev6A(my first Amiga, AmigaOS 1.3.2, 1MB Fat Agnus).  Amiga 500 Rev6A is revised version Amiga 500 Rev5(my second Amiga for null serial multi-player, AmigaOS 1.2, 512KB Agnus).
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2007, 11:15:33 PM »
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monami wrote:
@hammer

those are not my words they are from the online amiga history!

In 1991, PC was in ascending as a gaming platform e.g. Wing Commander series reveals classic Amiga’s architectural weakness for certain type of games.  
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2007, 11:45:07 PM »
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well i'm here again and i'll wait for the superiority of amiga to convince the world again

Ok, Amiga's Stardust (OCS/ECS, smooth multi-level scaling objects like Wing Commander), Brian The Lion (OCS/ECS, SNES style Mode 7(TM) effects), Shadow Fighter (OCS/ECS, CapCom System 2 style effects) and Elf Mania (OCS/ECS, CapCom System 2 style effects), Links (OCS/ECS, HAM mode game not just title screen) vs select an Atari ST/STE game with similar gfx quality.
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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2007, 11:55:24 PM »
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What really disapoints me is to see this world dominated by PCs. Crappy processor, crappy video, crappy sound, crappy OS, and It won the big fight over all the nice machines...

The X86 PC has a superior distribution model i.e. unified PC clones compared to fragmented 68K PC world.

Starting from 1991, PC world has ATI Mach series GPUs. In 1992, ATI Mach32 already beats CBM's AGA.
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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 12:23:13 AM »
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And... the rise of 3D first-person shooters pretty much killed off the remaining Amiga games market... If only the AGA chipset had included a chunky graphics mode as part of the original hardware (Akiko excluded)... Then again, that'd only have just delayed the inevitable...

Can CSG/MOS compete against Intel's 487 FP co-processor?

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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2007, 12:30:13 AM »
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monami wrote:
"What made Commodore such a great success was the times they delivered to market a product that people wanted."

i bought 3 vic 20's that all went wrong and were returned to radio rental before i decided on a zx spectrum.

My family's old VIC-20 works fine.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2007, 08:28:15 PM »
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DigitalQ wrote:
Quote

InTheSand wrote:
Errm... Windows NT was originally going to be based on OS/2, but this fell apart when Microsoft continued to develop its DOS-based Windows GUI instead of putting its resources into OS/2. IBM and M$ fell out, with IBM going the OS/2 route and Microsoft with Windows. The rest is history!

 - Ali


As I mentioned, it's a little-known fact.  When IBM and Microsoft parted ways, both parties owned OS/2 (as it was a joint project) and continued to develop it in their own way.  Microsoft slapped its Windows interface on it and called it Windows NT 3.0, while IBM proceeded with Warp.

This is further demonstrated when one discovers they can run older OS/2 programs under Windows NT.  Microsoft has an article on this at TechNet:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/ntwrkstn/reskit/os2comp.mspx?mfr=true

The compatibility existed because, for all intents and purposes, Windows NT was built on OS/2.

You are just looking at the surface.
OS/2 layer ranks the same as Win32 layer.

(OS/2)(Win32)(Posix)
(    NT Executive  )

Windows XP/2003/Vista removed OS/2 layer.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308259

Windows NT kernel has it’s origins from VMS.
http://osdir.com/ml/os.reactos.kernel/2004-07/msg00034.html
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1509990
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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2007, 08:41:38 PM »
Quote

monami wrote:
hi,

i will check out the articles. thanks.

some points seem hard to grasp thats all. if the amiga was as quoted a computer that could do things a 10000 couldn't do(earlier in the thread.) why couldn't they shift it for 1000?

atari "off the shelf chips"? they were industry standard. yam sound chip? used in their keyboards?

if the amiga was so revelutionary why did 3 companies turn them down?


Amiga brought the "GPU" concept to the mainstream.
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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2007, 10:32:50 PM »
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68K's had FP coprocessors too

That was Motorola's products.

Quote

There were no reasons for Amiga not to go in the 3d accelerator field, and chunky modes were in AAA

CSG/MOS would require some talent in building a fast RISC processors. During late 80s, SGI uses Intel 860 RISC/3D hybrid as its 3D accelerator.

Today’s 3D accelerators are FP processor arrays. Both ATI and NVIDIA have engineers from SGI.

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Intel processors are fast now, but they have the burden of a 30 years old 8086 to carry as compatibility

Only a minor burden since X86 ISA occurs at the front-end of the CPU i.e. hardware/micro-code emulation/translation from variable length instruction (CISC) to fix-length RISCy ISA.  
 
This burden didn’t stop AMD and Intel adding SIMD, Out-Of-Order, super-pipelining (includes FP), Fused FMUL/FADD(C2D), RISC-core, quad-instruction issue(C2D), speculative instruction(C2D) and data prediction and any other DEC Alpha EV6 features.

The actual CPU implementation is a customised RISC core.
The variable length instruction (CISC) has an added benefit of instruction compression.

A modern X86 processor operates in modes. AMD64 (aka X64, Intel64, EMT64) killed 'Real Mode' 8086 compatibility.

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They are also faster because they are produced in big volume

Unit sale numbers doesn’t inherently equals faster CPU cores e.g. ARM and MIPS.

What’s important are the people who designs these CPUs.

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 I would love to see what would happen if a better architeture like ARM or PPC had dominated the PC industry. We would be way ahead of our time.

Won’t change much since the people who designing today’s X86 would be still building MIPS or Alpha or PA-RISC.
Industry players would be the same minus the X86 ISA front-end.

For example;
"The cache design of the AMD Athlon is very similar to that of the Digital Alpha 21264(EV6). The repeated use of Digital Equipment Corporation(DEC) techniques which have been licensed by AMD can be explained by the fact that the development of the Athlon was led by Dirk Meyer who was head of development of the DEC 21264 at theDigital Equipment Corporation labs."

Since AMD’s K7 Athlon shares the [d]similar[/d] same infrastructure as with DEC’s Alpha EV6, just replace Athlon core with Alpha core and run Windows NT.

The last known Windows NT build for DEC’s Alpha was Windows 2000 (NT5.0). This version was used internally by Microsoft to build Windows NT 64bit editions.

In late 90's 1Ghz race, both Intel's Pentium III and AMD's K7 Athlon has a similar high clocking nature (when compared to PowerPC group) as DEC's Alpha EV6. One of the major reasons was the break-up of DEC and subsequent spread of talent to Intel and AMD.

In the alternative timeline, PowerPC gets beaten up again in early 90's 1Ghz race, via DEC’s Alpha (or any neo-DEC teams).

IF CBM was alive, we might be using HP's PA-RISC and ultimately Intel’s Itanium (includes X86 compatibility).

Refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=575
Lets put
1. 3DO vs ATI (Mach32) in 1993 context....
2. 3DO's M2 vs 3DFX(Voodoo2)/NVIDIA(TNT)/ATI(Rage 128 GL) in 1998 context.
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Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2007, 12:41:13 AM »
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Those features are also in other chips like PPC and even ARM. It is a natural way to go, but the base stuff still the 386 architecture

Emm, AMD’s K5 can still execute some AMD29000 RISC code....

Google AMD's K5 and AMD's 29000 RISC. You'll notice that there's nothing new with Transmeta's solution.

Ever since Intel’s Pentium Pro and AMD’s K5, all modern X86 micro-architectures are not 80386 micro-architecture based.

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Yes, it counts. Selling more chips measn you have more money,

During the 90s, DEC’s Alpha didn't require the same sales unit numbers as X86.

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and this means you can hire the hot shots to design your stuff, and they can have bigger teams.

NextGen (breakaway neo-DEC Alpha team) didn't start with large sales volume.

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 and production lines capable of state of the art silicon manufacturing

TSMC's 55nm fab almost rivals Intel's 45nm fabs and has beaten AMD's own 65nm fabs. TSMC's 55nm fabs are being used for non-X86 AMD RV670 (Radeon HD38x0 ) stream processor manufacturing.

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Apple had the fastest desktop some time ago with a PPC at the same clock that x86 ran

The claims was debanked with a K8 Athlon 64/Opteron e.g. Cinebench 2003 benchmark.

Care to restart PPC G5 vs K8 debates? Time dig out http://www.barefeats.com/ again...

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Everybody is going PPC. Even Microsoft

IBM is willing to licence its PPE core IP to Microsoft.

There's very little chance that Intel and AMD will licence its "Post-RISC" X86 designs to Microsoft. Both do not want uber-Microsoft corp in the PC market place.

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but massive processing power is a must

PPE (front-end) can issue two instruction issue per cycle with in-order processing while PowerPC 970 (front-end) can issue 4 instructions + 1 branch per cycle with out-of-order processing. In terms micro-architecture PPE is like PPC 601 (G1) with VMX, SMT and clocked at 3.2Ghz.
 
Most CELL's power comes SPUs. For X86 world, it has DX10 GpGPUs for stream array IEEE754 Single Precision Floating computation. AMD’s Radeon HD38x0 (RV670) can handle IEEE754 Double Precision Floating computation.

XBox360's Xenon PPE's shared L2 cache is clocked at 1.6Ghz i.e. half of 3.2Ghz core clock. Like CELL's PPE, this PPE core (front-end) can issue two instruction per cycle with in-order processing.

Quoting HPC numbers is a bit useless in SOHO scenarios. But, since you quoted it...
It would take about 958 AMD RV670s to reach "478.2 trillion floating operations per second". AMD and HP is targeting HPC FP math market with RV670 i.e. directly competing with CELL.

If we use Fold@Home as an indication, the non-IEEE754 RV570/R580 killed CELL twice over. Fold@Home has stated R600 is about 43 percent faster than the old R580.
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