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Author Topic: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000  (Read 5671 times)

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Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« on: November 07, 2005, 11:17:18 AM »
Hi everyone - (my first time on this board...)

Recently i got hold af an A3000 on ebay and i also bought a set of A3000 Kickstart 3.1 Rom's. I fitted the rom's but now the A3000 will no longer boot.

I tried fiddling with the rom timing jumpers and the A2000 rom compatibility jumpers but all seems to make no difference. Also i tried swapping the rom chips (read something about false layout printed on the board) but the Amiga refuses to boot :-?  :-?

My A3000 is a Rev 7.3 with 16Mhz CPU, 2mb chip and 12 or 16mb fastram (i forgot the exact amount). Also it is fitted with a Rom Tower (on which i replaced the bootroms with kick3.1)

I refitted the old chips and the Amiga continues to boot and work like before so the the A3000 is still allright.

Perhaps i forgot something and i was wondering if any of you guys could point me in the right direction to make my amiga work with the 3.1 rom's :idea:

Thanks,

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2005, 07:55:32 AM »
Ok, some extra info can maybe help:

There is no part-no on the chips but they are clearly A3000 rom's. I bought them on e-bay and i can see the chips have been installed before so i think they are used. The chips are actualy eproms with the following information on them:

[color=0000ff]
Kickstart 40.68
Amiga 3000-0  U181     (other chip: Amiga 3000-1  U180)
(c) 83-94 Commodore
All Rights Reserved
[/color]

And yes i have the Rom-Tower in my A3000 and i fitted the chips on them exactly like the original one's and i also tried swapping them but that makes no difference at all

Perhaps i can try to fit them into my A4000 to see if anything happens... :-?

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2005, 11:30:40 AM »
Thanks for your info Alexh. I was already thinking about installing the rom chips without the rom-tower but i was not sure about the posibility of damaging the A3000.

The strange thing is however (and this has also kept me from trying this) that the rom chips state U180 and U181, just like the description on the rom-Tower but If i remove the tower and install the chips in the REAR sockets (The sockets where the rom-tower was installed) i would install them in socket U182 and U183 while the FRONT sockets are U180 and U181...

Anyway, i'll try it anyway since i think it is my last solution before declaring the rom's defective...

I'll post my findings here after i tried.
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2005, 12:26:58 PM »
OK, I just tried the 3.1 rom's WITHOUT the rom-tower.

REAR sockets: Nothing happens
REAR sockets (swapped 3.1 roms): Nothing happens
Front sockets: Nothing happens
Front sockets (swapped 3.1 roms): Nothing happens

So now i think my Rom's are bad. Does anyone know if i could test the roms in an A4000 or A1200 to see if there is anything of a bootup phase? (I know IDE will be failing but perhaps i can see somthing on the screen).

Thanks,

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2005, 04:24:06 PM »
Quote
Where did you buy them, were they shipped across
country borders ?
They may have been subjected to a magnet or UV
light which would probably corrupt or even wipe them.


I bought them from someone in Belgium, our south neighbouring country so they were shipped across borders but it is realy close by and all within Europe but i'm pretty sure nothing happened to them in transport to me. However today I did contact the person I bought them from and he also bougth them from someone else again and did not test the rom's himself. He told me that the rom's should be ok since that was wat he was told when he bought them.

Anyway i'm pretty sure they don't work at this moment so I will look for a new set of working A3000 V3.1 Roms.

So if someone hase a spare set of A3000 V3.1 Roms then i would be interested...
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2005, 10:22:54 AM »
@dnelsonfl

I have the original bootroms (Loads kickstart from harddisk).

reading the solutions in your link did not really help since i already tried all that.

What you write about 2 different sets of roms i'v read also and i think that is indeed correct. Since i have an A3000 with Rom-tower i should be able to fit any of the 2 sets available.

To investigate some more I just tried a set of A1200/A4000 KS3.1 roms in my A3000 and as i expected i coud actualy boot :-) but ofcourse without SCSI and also fastram is not recognised. I also tested the A3000 Roms in my A1200 and it comes with a Red screen indicating a ROM (checksum) error. I conclude from that that the 1200 is actualy running instructions from the roms but that the roms are faulty. I also conclude from this that my set of A3000 roms is the one which requires the ROM-tower in my Amiga3000. Strange however is that i do not get the red screen when i place the roms in my A3000 (i get no response at all).

One solution for me might be to use the A1200/4000 roms and use an IDE controller with IDE harddisk (Still have an Buddha controller lying around).  :-D

I'm a bit reluctant to order new rom's (especially overseas) since the posibility of not working/incompatible roms seems rather high.

Thank you and everone here for your input :-)

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2005, 10:19:08 AM »
@dnelsonfl

If i can find someone near with an A3000 (preferably a Rev8.x or 9.x) willing to help I would for sure test my roms in his/her Amiga. I however do not see the point of trying older roms since that will not tell me anything about my Amiga (is already working with my original bootroms and now also with KS3.1 from A1200/4000) and also it will give no extra information about my set of A3000 KS3.1 roms which are not working in my A3000. My roms are simply bad or not compatible with my A3000 so testing my roms in another Amiga3000 will be the best option to know if my roms are actualy bad or incompatible.

I did test with and without harddisk to be sure and i waited several minutes to let the machine scan the SCSI bus but if the roms are working i would at least expect the powerled to turn bright and even that was not happening.

In the last few days i was also working on another A3000 mainboard (Rev 6.2, also with romtower) which is was totaly dead but now is showing some more life after some repairs (yelow screen/blinking powerled) so i was able to test my set of roms in this machine too. It showed me the same result: With the KS3.1 the board will do absolutely nothing besides heating up the room a little ;-) More reason to believe my roms are faulty.

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2005, 11:12:41 AM »
@Tahoe

I'm happy to read you like to help me but Amsterdam is to far away for me to only test the roms since I'm living in Enschede. But thank you for your offer anyway :-)

Greetings from Enschede

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2005, 05:19:25 PM »
@Tahoe

ROM speed jumpers i already tried (see tread) and since My a3000 has a 16Mhz CPU the jumpers were already at this position.

About Softkicking: With the bootroms an 68060 accelerator will   not work and I was intending to use my MKII 060 so that's the main reason for me to want rom's instead of softkicking 3.1. If my 060 would work with softkicking i guess the fallbackmode is a usefull feature and i would opt for this solution too. Ofcourse you loose 512k ram like Alexh is also pointing out....
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2005, 05:39:17 PM »
@Crusher

Thanks for making very detailed pictures:) Very handy. I noticed however your roms are placed BACKWARDS in the sockets!!!!!!! The notch on the roms (indicating pin 1) SHOULD be pointing towards the doughterboard of the amiga whilst in your pictures they point towards the side of the amiga (where the mouse/keyb. connectors are). If this is really the way they work for you i find this very strange indeed.

My romtower is seated exactly like yours, also in the same sockets. The bootroms i have work with Pin 1 towards the doughterboard. Also my KS3.1 roms should be inserted in the same way and in that way the text on the roms is also readed from left to right exactly like the text on the bootroms!! What i see in your pictures is the text is also upside down indicating they are seated backwards!

I also see your Amiga is missing some chips so perhaps you are working on it and maybe you put the chips in backwards by mistake so i hope you read this and be sure they are correct (for you) before they possibly cause damage...

More later....

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2005, 07:36:39 PM »
@Crusher

Well, The Rom tower changes realy only the adress lines because they were mixed-up (the flaw you are talking about) but in doing so the tower needs the chips positioned in the way i posted before. I Actualy measured today which lines go where to know exactly what the rom tower was doing.

And since we seem to have the same Rev. mainboard and my Original roms are working i'm pretty sure yours are placed reversed.

It could be possible to damage the chips if you place them backwards (but i'm not sure about this).

I will post more about the ROM Towers exact function later

Regards,

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: SOLVED! Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2005, 09:58:06 PM »
YES I finaly got it solved, the 3.1 Rom's are working in my 3000!!!  :-)  :-)  :-)

After seeing the pictures Crusher posted with the 3.1 rom reversed in the socket while i also could see he had the same Rev. (7.x) mainboard with exacly the same Rev Rom-tower i got really confused. Could it be possible that my (until now not working) 3.1 Roms should be installed reversed in their sockets? Even If the original roms (V1.4 bootroms) AND the kickstart 3.1 Roms taken from my A1200 worked correct without reversing? I wanted to know for sure and took the schematics of the A3000 and compared them with the schematics of the A4000 and i also found out what the rom-tower is doing by measuring the lines from the sockets where the roms go to the pins which go into the rom-sockets on the amiga.


[color=0000ff]This is what the rom-tower is doing (short version):[/color]
Sockets U180 & U181 on the A3000 have Adresslines A2...A18 from the amiga go to A1...A17 on the rom chips.
Sockets U180 & U181 on the ROM-Tower have the same Adresslines A2...A18 coming from the amiga go to A0...A16 on the rom chips.
The A4000 and A1200 also have A2...A18 go to A0...A16 on the roms and that is where they are supposed to be. So basicly that is what the romtower is correcting, all other signals (D0..D15/D31, OE, CS, GND,VCC) stay the same.


So this confirms that the kickstart roms (wheter they are KS2.x or 3.x) should be placed in the same position as the original bootroms have been.

Still i did not have my KS3.1 at work and i also found out why: The Adresslines of A4000 and i guess also newer models of A3000 (Rev 8.x an higher) decode also A19 (from amiga) to A17 (on rom chip) which makes for a total of 1024K of rom space (18 adress lines, 16 data lines, 2 chips = 2^18x2(bytes)x2(chips)=1024Kbytes). On older Rev. (6.x, 7.x) A3000 A19 is not connected and that leaves room for max 512Kb. So since KS3.1 is (only) 512kb it should work great right? But my KS3.1 did not work. Looking a bit closer at my KS3.1 (they are eproms and not roms in my case) i found out that my chips are 4mbit (512kb) each so that totals to 1024K  so that means only half of it it filled with the KS3.1 code and the other half is not used. Now how does the amiga select the 'right' part of the chip and not the part which is not used? It uses the extra adresline (Amiga A19, Rom A17) to do so! I think this extra line was intended for future kickstarts which might be bigger than 512K (Older KS1.2/1.3 was only 256K and grew to 512 starting with KS2.0). The A17(rom) line on the sockets on the ROM-Tower was not connected to A19 (amiga) but was connected to ground(0V) and with that it selected the unused part of my Eproms and that is why my KS3.1 did not work in my Amiga3000. Until now because after i reconnected the A17 lines from my eproms to +5V (which makes the amiga use the other half of my eproms) it finaly worked :-D  :-D  :-D

So this also explains why 'some' KS3.1 roms seem incompatible with A3000 with rom Tower. Some roms like my eproms are actualy twice the normal size and need A17 attached to +5V to select the part where the code is. The 'compatible' roms probably are the right size and have no A17 so they would work in the rom-tower where the A17 line is connected to ground. (Ofcourse if the code in my rom would have been in the other half they would have worked too but would then be incompatible in newer rev's A3000 with A19 from amiga attached to A17 from rom).

It's a long story but it took me some time to find out how it all connected and i hope that this can help others who have the same problem if they try to install Kickstart 3.1.

Also i would like to thank all of you who posted (again :-) ) because without the postings i would not have searched so long i guess.

Tom
 

Offline drbytesTopic starter

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Re: SOLVED! Problem fitting kickstart 3.1 rom's in A3000
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2006, 10:51:22 AM »
@Crusher

Quote
@drbytes, you were totally right about my roms and I bow in shame.


Thanks for correcting! Makes things less confusing :)