dnetc benchmarks

[Tripitaka]

And, btw, you're not plugging a Radeon HD4650 into an old Mac (even if you could, there's no BIOS support).

A very good point. Graphics cards are doing a lot of work these days and support for them is a  very relevant point when considering these systems against each other.

Come to think of it, let's see a benchmark using FPS framerates with the best graphics card each system supports.

[Tripitaka]

Understanding Hyperion is not so hard. Just consider that they produce OS4 for the G4, Well that is by definition a niche, the market will never expand beyond the amount of G4s still in working order. A new machine has an infinite amount of market expansion available by comparison.

Now you can argue this any way you damn well like but if your trying to get people to part with capital to support you, that's as much as they needed to read before choosing which way to go. Whatever your national equivalent of Dragons Den* is should have taught you that.  Of course, once down the new machine route you can't compete with yourself by producing OS4 for the G4 later either.


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons'_Den#Versions

[Tripitaka]

The amount of available used G4 Mac computers that are still in "working order" is in the millions, and far more by orders of magnitude than will ever be produced by ACube, or A-Eon, or anyone else, since producing PPC desktop motherboards from anyone else is about non-existent these days.  Also, the niche of Amiga OS4 users has great potential to grow several times larger than it currently is today, under the right circumstances.  Will it happen?  I don't know, but there certainly were hundreds of thousands of Amiga users in the not too distant past that are potential new users for the niche OS4 community of today and tomorrow.  Why not do everything possible to try to get more of them to return?

Huh?  If you want people to spend money to return to using any kind of Amiga experience then the rules of giving them the most for their money still apply.  There are some that want only new computers, there are some that hate Apple and will never buy any of it, and then there are the rest that buying a used G4 Mac makes perfect sense to run OS4 on and if you want to have as many OS4 users as possible, you should try to satisfy all of the three groups and specially the largest of the three groups, which is probably the group that wants the best performance per dollar/pound/euro and would be interested in buying OS4.x for a G4 Mac computer.

Not true, even Hyperion has ported to used G4 computer AFTER they had already ported OS4 to the SAM440ep.  IIRC, the port to the Peg2 came after the port to the SAM440ep.  There is no valid reason to not port OS4.x to used G4 Mac computers that I can see.  It will only result in more sales for Hyperion and more OS4 users in total.

It could hurt ACube SAM sales and might hurt A-Eon's sales of the X1000 (but I doubt it because by the time Hyperion could finish a port of OS4 to any G4 Mac model, I doubt A-Eon will still be producing X1000's due to the cost and difficulty in obtaining PA6T CPU's, but I could be wrong).

What is more important to the OS4 users, having more fast and cheap hardware to tempt new users and developers with to join the party, or supporting ACube & A-Eon by only having the option to use OS4 on more expensive custom hardware?

I want to support OS4 hardware companies too, but not at the expense of limiting the community in it's attempt to gain more users and developers.

Maybe after a port to used G4 Mac models the community as a whole could concentrate more on getting more developers and software and worry less about what the future of OS4 hardware is for a while (but still keep exploring all different possibilities for future hardware to move to when all existing hardware starts to fail.  I plan on using my X1000 for the next 20 years:) )

Edit:  After further thought, my request for Hyperion to port OS4 to G4 Mac hardware will surely hurt A-Eon's future chances for any other hardware designs.  I really like Trevor and want him to succeed, but I still think the best thing for the OS4 users and developers would be to provide a port of OS4 to one or more G4 Mac models.  So, who does Hyperion support, the users, or the hardware designers/suppliers?  Tough choice.

Since I have already purchased my X1000, it is easy for me to suggest that the porting to G4 Macs is the better choice, now that I have all that I need for the next many years.  Others might resent this idea as they want their own X1000, or some later new design, and so do not want Hyperion to port OS4 to any G4 Mac's if that means that future OS4 custom hardware might then get canceled.

I know, I know, and yes I 've heard all those opinions before. I also agree with what you are saying. So now why don't you go to the bank and argue for a loan to finance your niche product versus a theoretically not niche product and see which one you can get the finance for. Now please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that anything you've said is wrong, your speaking good common sense and as I've said I do honestly agree but that is not how the cold heart of investment works. OS4 on a machine that someone else made, that is no longer manufactured, has about as much chance of outside founding as a company making replacement hands for vintage action man or GI Joe figures, they will see the product as a dead product and hence a financial dead end for them. Sadly you have to think like these people to understand the choices Hyperion made.

If it was my choice I would gave ported to ARM at the first chance I had and been done with it. That of course is a whole new story and it wasn't my decision to make so it didn't go that way.

Of course, MOS will be faced with having to break out of only supporting old powerpc hardware at some point too. Those old Macs will only last for so long.

[Tripitaka]

Well, nothing new to see here, MorphOS still crushes AmigaOS4 in this department. In fact, the MPlayer video decoding benchmark deliberately excluded displaying the decoded video, as this would have seriously crippled the X1000 result (the Radeon HD driver doesn't yet support overlay).

True for now, but in theory the X1000 could take a brand new PCIE card providing someone writes the drivers for it.

[Tripitaka]

It takes time and money. As you know from my bank manager, it, the money, quickly runs out that is why my pumped up SAM440ep goes under the hammer.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=60650

Off topic I know but any chance of using Kickstarter?

[Tripitaka]

It will be interesting to see how much the X1000 speeds up over the next few years with tweaks and optimization. Graphics drivers and dual core support would both make a huge difference of course, I look forward to it....

...not to forget that we should have Natami to play with too (fingers crossed). Plenty of choice for all.

[Tripitaka]

instead of making a go for the powerful but cheap mainstream options that's already here! Cheap, powerful HW and a platform growth to come with that

I doubt that would work anyway. Let's face it, the Apple comeback was not due to going x86, it was due to iphones and ipods. That was about style and marketing savvy more than anything else as we all well know.

[Tripitaka]

When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?

This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...

Running on old macs is a road to death too unless you end up porting to something else, how is that any different for MOS over OS4?

As for the "only release hardware when it makes sense" attitude around this thread, why pay for an '030 accelerator? a MOS license ? or even a flicker fixer. They are all insane prices for most people to pay when you could get a PC for a couple of hundred bucks complete with Windows. Ahh, but that's the point isn't it, we are not "most people".

[Tripitaka]

An easy and good (the best) way of keeping afloat, while searching for new land to settle...

That depends on your business model and future plans, I don't pretend to know what deals Hyperion are planning for the future. They seem pretty "afloat" right now so no worries from me. Either way, you've got MOS and if your happy with that, well, more power to you I guess. Enjoy it, and if OS4 dies you still have MOS. Either way the Amiga scene has plenty of NG choice right now, X1000, SAM, MOS or AROS, the choice is yours. Just don't go deluding yourself that any of them will be competition for Microsoft, it ain't going to happen.

[Tripitaka]

Regarding the less than stellar X1000 performance: There is a problem somewhere. I have no idea if it's hardware or software (*). Hopefully it's a) something that can be fixed b) will be fixed soon. 2nd core support will likely take quite some time though.

*) Someone doing some linux benchmarking would easily be able to tell if the issue is a software one.

I get the feeling Piru would really like to see the X1000 performing well. Nice to see from a MOS developer.

[Tripitaka]

it's hardly the MorphOS crowd that suffer from these kind of delusions, part of going MorphOS and "getting over" the trade mark, is to wake up, smell the coffee, and look at things as the *hobby* it really is...

LMAO, I have no delusions I assure you. I intend to hunt for a Peg board in a few weeks time (waiting on the cash right now) so I can run MOS and OS4. I prefer to hedge my bets and eat popcorn.